High price of Roger Pen and Roger Select

Thanks. I’m interested to know if anyone’s tried the Roger X with an Oticon Streamer Pro.

Some might be interested in this video I found, a Roger Select demo where you can hear speakers at a table through the Select:

RogerX
Note the 3 prong connection. If it fits your streaming device, it will probably function with Roger devices too but do your research before buying.

@Psych1 said:

I would have thought someone else would have developed something similar by now. But no.

Starkey has table mic which I think is cheaper. But works only with their aids.

@greg.smith said:

For similar (not identical) devices, I have in mind the PartnerMic in particular, and other such devices various HA brands.

If by similar you mean ‘mic’, then you can ‘compare’ like that.
But when you dig into HOW those mics work, it’s apples and oranges. Or more specifically omnidirectional mic in ‘others’ vs automatically adjustable with focusing on sound source by phonak and starkey. Phonak has 3 mics and forms 6 beams. This video is good and realistic representation how it works. It attenuates but not removes unwanted directions.

Maybe Echo has something equal, I’m not familiar, I don’t want such things in my home, I like my home stupid, but it obviously isn’t that easy for other HA manufacturers to use such tech, I guess a lot of R&D is needed, and I can hardly imagine many companies who have more money for such plays than amazon. So it’s not fair in a sense to compare tech giant with average sized company.

It’s apples and oranges if you compare engineering power of amazon vs sonova or someone else in HA industry. And sonova looks really strong in HA industry.

For example, google supposedly pays around 180-200k CHF in Zürich for newcomer programers (think junior).
Sonova I guess is more aligned with the market and pays 120k for senior programers (think 10 years of experience). I forgot if I saw their salary figures, 120k is the fresh info (from today) from the recruiter in the ZH area.
No amazon there, but TFAANG (tesla, amazon, apple, netflix, google, facebook) are usually similarly competitive on the same market, that’s why I took google salary info in the perspective, since it’s in the same city as Sonova, and they have the tech in question.
So if they can’t pay the same rate, I expect their R&D has to feel that as well.
So from that perspective, I think they (sonova and others) actually did awesome stuff already with such limited funds - of such small customer base where people usually buy new aid every 5 years. Also, don’t forget that around half of the price you pay for your aids isn’t going to the manufacturer, but your fitter.

I saw sonova’s job ad for a position that mentions health monitoring and sensors, so I guess that’s next step for them

R&D focused on implementing better already known stuff is expensive. And playing around with inventing new stuff is even more expensive - mostly because you waste insane amount of time on all ‘not a solution’ versions.

Edit.

Do you know how the signal is transmitted from the Select to the Roger X? Bluetooth? Or something like a hearing loop? That sure is an expensive little device, so you’d think it would be good.

I was not referring to the Echo as a complete device (which is certainly not competitive with Roger in its intended or practical function), but specifically to the ring of beamforming microphones it uses to locate and pick up users interacting with it, in noise and at significant distance. By now, this type of microphone array is neither “unobtanium” (so to speak) nor only the preserve of FAANG-level tech behemoths, and indeed component suppliers like Analog Devices will explain to anyone interested in implementing this type of solution how to do it because they’re happy to sell the parts for literally pennies:

https://www.eeweb.com/microphone-array-beamforming-tutorial/

https://www.eeweb.com/wp-content/uploads/articles-app-notes-files-microphone-array-beamforming-tutorial-1340650556.pdf

Obviously the secret sauce is the software, and the question of what’s “fair” to pay for that is a different issue than how much more a device costs than its bill of materials. But if there were an open interconnection protocol (with a lighter-weight power draw than Bluetooth) I believe 3rd party devices could hit a very desirable price-performance compromise between the two levels of PartnerMic and Roger Select.

Can I call up an EE design house in Shenzhen, and specify an STM32-based, LiPo-battery equipped, beamforming Bluetooth remote mic with reasonable near-field fidelity? Yes. Will it cost more for industrial design to make the enclosure look nice? Absolutely. Can I have them made for less than $300 in quantity? Possibly, with a major caveat around the definition of “quantity”. As an experimenter, I wouldn’t be worried about working on a homebrew BT solution but I have no doubt that patents are what is keeping other players out of this (small, but still competitive) market.

Thanks for this. I think you clearly described how tricky all is, and yeah, probably patents also play a big role in both limits and end prices.

R&D cost a lot, I think we all can agree on that.
I was just generally comparing some infos that play a role (eg if company can’t afford huge salaries chances ars that R&D isn’t drowning in big piles of cash either).

@greg.smith said:

Can I have them made for less than $300 in quantity? Possibly, with a major caveat around the definition of “quantity”.

Yeah, i doubt you can order less than several dozen thousands if not hundreds.

And unless we know real numbers of sales, I’m not sure that non sonova manufacturers actually see the potential profit in that, since it is questionable how many of items they can really sell.
And that’s why they stick to simple mics as opposed to fancy solutions.

Let’s not forget that sonova produces spy and fancy microphones so they definitely have deeper know how than other HA manufacturers who do only HAs and CIs.

And also, if people buy what you sell already, you don’t have big incentive to invent new products and take risks.

Market isn’t that big, and who is first in something, is probably taking the biggest share.

For us as consumers that’s unfortunate, because if they HAVE to compete, then we’ll get more nice things as end result. But since market is small, there’s not much money (as compared to FAANG markets) and costs of entering with something completely different (eg such mics) and be disruptive are probably insanely high and risks of failure or just not getting enough to earn from it) is also high…

I have a select on trial and have to return it in a few days.
I am inclined to say thanks but no thanks, the cost is not such a hurdle but the usefulness is.
In “easy” environments it nicely sharpens up the near voices around a restaurant table ; however as soon as the ambient reaches a level that exceed the Marvels management capacity , the Roger was delivering a combination of near and far to the point of both discomfort and functional inaudibility.
The audio says that the Roger is not “programmable” for individual hearing profiles, I find that a bit surprising.
A Roger does not suffer the size and battery constraints that limit aid processing and I would have expected much more powerful management in noise.
Leads to … will Phonak steadily update the Roger, eventually building a category killer but at the expense of many damaged users wallets along the way ?

…sorry… I was too brief….thanks for the reply …

Of course the app offers a balance between the two inputs and of course the total gain to the ear is adjustable.

The Audio says adjustments for a personal hearing profile are not available with the Roger, other aid programs , eg noise or music programme , are also not available when Roger streaming.
With no travel opportunities extant , my inclination is to pass until the gadget is a bit less crude in its functionality.

@tgh said:

The audio says that the Roger is not “programmable” for individual hearing profiles, I find that a bit surprising.

Roger program is own program, fitter can adjust it by your feedback, and it definitely will be for your loss.

But yes, other programs are own programs, and not automatically integrated in roger program.

So, you need to understand for which environment you’ll use the mic, and then set up that program for those environments.

Unfortunately, we have only one roger program, and not several. So you cannot have ‘roger restaurant’ and ‘roger family dinner’ for example, where you might have a need for different adjustments.

However, since most of the time you’ll use mics for really complicated situations, they will be better than program in aids alone, since mic is closer to the sound source.
Again, if fitted properly.

But there are definitely hearing losses where folks don’t need the kick it can provide, or better said, they don’t feel the difference between mic and aids.

One numeric value that could help to asses that is your SNR score (signal to noise ratio), done with quicksin or similar test.
If that value is let’s say 7 or lower, aids should be able to deliver that no problem, so I suspect such person wouldn’t notice much improvement when compared to the mic.

Thanks for the comment, I have ordered a Roger and we will try to find a profile that works for me.
I am trialling a more aggressive profile with the aids atm , seeking improved speech understanding , sadly with little change .
I will probably revert to a previous more mellow and tolerable profile that may suit the Roger.
I have also resolved to cease blaming the world for not being able to make me hear….

I find the roger select useful in the sense that it works at a higher ambient noise level than aids alone before quitting.
In light noise used as a table mic with a small group , the roger delivers much improved speech recognition.
As the noise increases the contribution degrades until it gives up and quits.
At a recent very noisy function, I experimented with the select .
I forgot to record the room Db… but it was very noisy and many “normal” folks struggled to chat
Placing it on the knee of a single speaker sitting beside me, it amplified the same unintelligible mid range driven cacophony as the aids. There was no difference when selecting one microphone or several.
Even when holding it as a direct mike close to the speaker, it was still overcome by the ambient racket and of no use.
Such is life….

I disliked the Roger Select when I tried it, for exactly the same reason. It amplified everything. The Roger Pen is the more directional of the two in my experience and has good selectivity for what I want to hear when there is noise.

I have all the Roger stuff. The reviewer who said you don’t need both was wrong. Each has its own strength and limitations. I recently got a Table Mic it seems to be the most powerful and versatile. Once you have the receivers the non IN stuff can be found cheap if you are good at bargain hunting.

Wearing Phonak Brio 2’s from Costco about 4 years ago and use the Compilot II for TV and radio streaming. Just purchased Roger 03 receiver, Roger Easy Pen and clip-on mic from E-Bay. I’m able to pair the items and use them for streaming with a direct base connection but can’t seem to get enough volume when using them as a mic. My hearing specialist is at Costco so isn’t familiar with Roger. Looking for advice for the next step to get the Roger items working as they should.