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Edited

Have I tried?!? I think I have tried everything except smashing the phone to smithereens before dropping all debris into sulfuric acid. But it is on my list.

Of course. I wrote all about that. If I want to hear the TV clearest, it would make sense that I kill the mic - correct?

Then with the mic killed (but not displaying it crossed out -rather displaying the active status - which is a whole different screw up, but a mild one, and the fact that it shows a speaker, rather than a mic - but I guess that is for sightless users- right?) anyway with the mic killed- the streaming volume is still too low. So I just want to nudge it up a bit.

And so I do that. I nudge up the streaming volume.
Right? Following me still?
But just touching the streaming volume, IMMEDIATELY TURNS THE DAMN MICS back on. WHY? WHY???

I should have included in my response here, that I often have used the balance slider. That does work fine. BUT if the stream volume is mid level, the balance does NOT RAISE the stream volume. It just fades the mix towards the stream, and eventually mutes the mics… yes. However it does not increase the stream volume level. So it is not a solution for the complaint I am pointing out. Which is a clear defect!

Have you considered that the manufacturer might not consider it safe for you to walk around in total isolation without any mic input from around you. Like people who walk across streets with headphones on. So the devices are set to increase the ambient mic level if they detect you’re turning up the streamed volume?

No NO NO!
You are missing the point.
Firstly, there are many chances for injury because of the damn distraction and failure to retain a setting.

Secondly with all the talk of Ai, surely your explanation could be dealt with better.

It could have a flag pop up, reminding of that danger.
It could ASK immediately IF I wanted to raise the ambient volume.
If I have the ambient volume OFF. And RAISE - not lower the stream volume.
What on earth might my reasoning be - Um?

I could keep going, but there is no rationale defense for how it behaves.
I suggested long ago, that there be just two sliders. Period. One for mic level, and one for stream level, then in a deft single dual finger slide a user could choose what he wants independantly.

@IGZO said:

You are missing the point.
Firstly, there are many chances for injury because of the damn distraction and failure to retain a setting.

Have you considered that the engineering rationale for the ‘mix’ of sound is the same for any product designed for user safety? Even if that puts ‘user experience’ second.

The idiom ‘First, we do no harm….’ is what applies here.

Additionally there’s an error in your assumption that streaming is always the best when experienced in isolation: what if there’s a fire alarm going off?

I want to thank you, and all who are trying to help.
But truly I wonder why everyone seems to be defending the manufacturer.

Philips and Oticon and I know at least one other brand… do not behave this way.
Their apps, do not reactivate hearing aid microphones, whenever the streaming volume is touched, tweaked, raised, lowered, full, slight, or anything - am I clear.
SO does that mean - those manufacturers feel differently about user safety, than Phonak?

Getting back to your question - once again, I feel that all my efforts, all my many words… have failed to paint the full picture. Sure I can raise the TV Adapter’s output. Or lower it. Neither in itself has any affect on the app. So if I wanted to walk all the way over to the TV, reach behind the TV, tap the + button once or more than once, and return back to my seat, to watch the TV, the Streaming volume will have risen a bit, and the phone app display will not have changed. However very soon the volume will need to be lowered. And soon after that, guess what ? It will once again be too low. For this reason there are such things as R E M O T E S, and for wearers, where volume via HA, not TV speaker needs adjustment, this is why there are APPS.

For the tenth time - after fifty plus years of handling gear, and some 30 plus wearing hearing aids, and multiple brand experience with phone apps for hearing aids: THIS IS A PHONAK DESIGN ERROR.

I think it’s less a case of “defend the manufacturer” and more a case of people predicting that you are unlikely to get any traction because there aren’t a lot of people bothered by this, and so they are trying to find other solutions for you.

In that line, you could consider just having the hearing aid microphones permanently muted in the streaming program, and/or the gain in the streaming program turned up, and/or the streaming sound compressed a bit to try to get around the poorly managed television audio. You could plug the TV connector into the headphone jack and lose the audio for others. But it does seem like these are all static solutions to a fluctuating problem, so you’re probably just SOL.

It’s a TV problem too, though. Even people with normal hearing have to ride the remote and it’s ridiculous. Just put everything at a standard volume and stop jacking up the commercials.

Edited
@Neville said:

unlikely to get any traction because there aren’t a lot of people bothered by this,

I think most are bothered by this… but many may accept it, because their limited experience with gear, does not lead them to question, or because they have not clearly identified what is happening, as I recall, I was puzzled to the point I thought I was losing my mind - until I said, WAIT, WTF is happening here, it’s not me!

@Neville said:

In that line, you could consider just having the hearing aid microphones permanently muted in the streaming program

No, then how would my wife speak to me, and how would I hear the smoldering electric fire crackling?

@Neville said:

and/or the gain in the streaming program turned up

I do that, but then the mics reactivate, and require that I shut them, plus actually setting the best streaming, is not possible because immediately the mics activate affecting the sound I hear, so I set it higher than needed without the mics competing - vis?

@Neville said:

and/or the gain in the streaming program turned up

That is a good idea, I will check next Target visit, I think I did some tweak… but not sure offhand.

@Neville said:

You could plug the TV connector into the headphone jack and lose the audio for others

Hmmm, you mean to say kick her out of the house or fight her over this… but then there is that crackling fire again?

@Neville said:

But it does seem like these are all static solutions to a fluctuating problem, so you’re probably just SOL.

Static? the only static is the irrational opposition here. Everyone should call Phonak… even if just once every hour. Till it is resolved. Simple! Other Brands don’t all have this irrational behavior. Why???

@Neville said:

It’s a TV problem too, though. Even people with normal hearing have to ride the remote and it’s ridiculous. Just put everything at a standard volume and stop jacking up the commercials.

On that I agree. And was considering adding an circuit. Unsure how well they work, and cannot find a Toslink unit. But I have no problem riding the volume level, I am used to it. I am not used to having to adjust the color, or the channel each time I vary the volume though. That would be crazy - right? Just like the phone app! I think 85% of Phonak users have this frustration and instead of questioning me, they should question Phonak NOW!

@IGZO I’m with you! This does sound like a stupid design choice by Phonak.

I started my own rant about a similar (but different) shortcoming with ReSound (ReSound Streaming Rant) and I also felt some of the replies were defending the manufacturer. Must be a variation of the Stockholm syndrom :slight_smile:

But more seriously, I think you are correct: wearers tend to be less tech-savvy and may not recognize poor design when they encounter it. So the manufacturer gets very little feedback.
And the manufacturer mostly cares about Audiologists since they steer the purchasing decision.

I started my rant with the same intention as what you mentioned: get more people to actually complain until the manufacturer wakes up. I give it maybe a 10% change of success, but that’s still better than nothing :face_with_head_bandage:

Yours is a cogent reply! A breath of fresh air.
Every revolution began with one person.
I could quote some great movie lines - but will save the reader here unless requested.

Repeatedly I have heard from various manufacturers that user feedback is essential to them keeping their edge over competition. Good companies and I think most long term companies value it. No doubt however the vast majority of feedback that they get, complaints they hear, are due to lack of user knowledge, lack of user understanding of the product and unawares of the countless hours of research that the company has done. Usually someone in the company filters out the meaningful complaints from the noise. A very large company may have so many layers of operation that the heads needing and interested in knowing about valid complaints, are too insulated and information is too slow to get to them.

If a consumer cares about his investment, he will want the manufacturer to keep getting better and to remain strong. This keeps the company’s reputation and actually can mean an easier sale when the consumer decides to part with the product. This also means the possibility of improved product value due to product improvements via software and firmware upgrades.

Recently I persuaded a small photographic lighting company that their lock button should lock all their controls, not just the one it was locking. That in practical operation, locking all the controls would make the user experience far better and their product far more usable. They appreciated my feedback, and made that change in a matter of weeks! Once they understood what my complaint was as well as several other technical suggestions for future builds, they refunded entirely my purchase cost of the two units I had bought thru amazon and thanked me profusely for helping them gain professional insights into how their product could become more appetizing to pros.

A few years ago, Nikon released a firmware update to their Z9 after I pointed out a very serious issue that a few advanced users could find catastrophic. It was done quietly, not announcing that particular fix, but including the fix, along with other tweaks. Around 2016 Panasonic heard my feedback. There was a lot of back and forth between a top USA officer and their Japanese plant. The issues were not serious, just frustrating behavior and foolish limitations involving menu settings and operational convenience - things that can be critical in professional use of a camera and that other companies were already doing. Most of my suggestions were implemented in their next model release if not in a firmware update

Your Stockholm syndrome comment might be valid. By preferring to believe that faults lie in ourselves, or that nothing can be done, is sometimes easier, than the burden of having discovered a problem and then facing the challenge of how to sound the alarm to fix it!

Your one single encouraging reply has made a difference! I will now dig up my notes on the flaws, consolidate them into a cogent list and email them to Phonak, as well as post them here. Unfortunately, if the dealers - or as you say the are too lazy to speak up for their clients - it means that change could require a hundred times as many voices to be raised. My suggestion would be that in addition to complaining to the company, users who are investing in dealer/professional services, should take every opportunity to make them feel your pain. Explain to your vendor that you are not happy with the functionality of the feature, and that had you known this, you would not have taken the vendor’s suggestion on this brand. That you are less than thrilled to put it mildly. If the vendor values your business, he should care enough to speak up for you. That intense interaction with the head company might actually lead to some financial benefit to him. Certainly it could mean the difference between a consumer who feels good about being a customer and the very opposite!

Edited

In reply to @Neville

@Neville said:

Am I understanding correctly that your issue is that you mute the hearing aid microphones while streaming (button on hearing aid or button on app), and then when you turn up the volume on your phone (button side of phone) the hearing aid microphones unmute?

NO Neville. If that was the situation, it would be MY bad. That would not be an app defect. I am glad you asked so I may clarify for others whom I may have confused.

In the app - The Phonak App on the smartphone. When connected to any Bluetooth source, you have a vertical bar that represents the streaming volume.
Then you have a small speaker icon, that represents the ambient audio picked up by the mics. And thirdly you have a horizontal bar below that, which allows you to vary the balance between those two sources - the Stream, and the Ambient.

Now the main problem is that if you hit the speaker icon to SHUT OFF THE MICs. and then you touch the STREAM slider, IMMEDIATELY the ambient MICs are TURNED ON !!! WHY? Why would I want to activate the ambient mics, just because I ask that the Stream volume be a tad or a tremendous amount louder.
As in the analogy I wrote months ago here, why would I expect the stove to turn on the fried pork skillet, that I had turned off, just because I raised the heat on the chicken soup burner ?

With the app, is the secondary flaw of displaying a speaker, when the microphones are meant, and displaying the speaker crossed out, when it fact the mics are active, but removing that slash from the speaker, when the mics are muted. All these three things can only be expected to confuse users and drive users INSANE!.

I understand you use the vertical slider in the MyPhonak app, but why simply don’t you use the phone’s volume buttons during streaming?

I’ve never use that vertical slider for adjusting streaming volume, because for me it’s inconvenient compared to unlocking the phone, entering the app, etc.

Are you asking me, why I don’t use the phone volume buttons to adjust the Bluetooth streaming volume from my computer or from the TV Adapter?

Well, now, I really cannot explain that… had never expected that could work?!?
Does it ?

Also for the phone, the app, allows me to subdue the ambient sound. For example, all the keyboard clatter, and the computer fans, when I am using the phone in a creative screen sharing session with a client. I don’t need to hear the keyboard or the computer fans. But I do need to hear my voice to a some extent. Also, when I am using the phone, generally I am NOT HOLDING it. It is on my desk or some surface, with the display clearly available. Adjusting the app, requires one finger.

@IGZO said:

Are you asking me, why I don’t use the phone volume buttons to adjust the Bluetooth streaming volume from my computer or from the TV Adapter?

Well, now, I really cannot explain that… had never expected that could work?!?
Does it ?

With my computer, simply adjusting Windows volume slider works perfectly. Works also with laptop volume physical buttons. MyPhonak app is seldom necessary, almost never use it in that case.

I rarely watch TV and use TV connector so I’m not sure about adjusting volume by pilot. Someone on the forum has his individual intermediary audio device between TV and TV connector.

I don’t usually like adjusting the windows volume slider on any computer. I have it adjusted at about 80% so that it does not distort or overdrive whatever it is feeding.

Regarding the Phonak App, my main use of the streaming volume slider is for the TV adapter.

My main use of the computer are for photoshop or premiere pro which is a video editing program. It makes sense to have standard levels coming out of the computer. Most important are the audio levels being recorded/edited. If I was constantly adjusting the computer volume, the program volume, the phone volume the app volume, the speaker volume, the hearing aid volume… OMG… how would I ever know feel what the volume and the relative volumes were? **

But none of this is truly relavent!
I paid 100% of what the dealer required, and the device should work 100% Period.

In reply to @IGZO

@IGZO said:

Are you asking me, why I don’t use the phone volume buttons to adjust the Bluetooth streaming volume from my computer or from the TV Adapter?

And your buttons, they can be configured as well, yeah obvious that you hate the App so much, gotta try and find another way.

I should re-explore the button options in Target.
Maybe the buttons could independently work with TV Streaming in a way where one instrument controls the Streaming volume and the other instrument controls the Ambient mic levels. But I don’t think that option exists.

Currently the button controls balance between Stream and Ambient, which is not the same thing.

While everyone here seems to prefer the HA buttons… for some reason… I just don’t. True that in a face to face conversation with one or a few persons, it can seem very natural to just go up to my ear, as if I am scratching and nonchalantly raise or lower the volume. But for me, the phone seems so much more natural.

Possibly this is because I NEVER touch my face, am not fussing with my face, don’t know why, but I have always had clear skin, and never itching or a reason to scratch. Also, with food preparation being one of my interests, I never put my fingers in my mouth or touch food or food stuffs with my fingers. Unless I haev just washed my hands. So in my mind, suddenly reaching to my ear, disturbing either of my resting lobes, feeling for the up vs the down button, and then affecting a quick but not too quick touch, which for me works best as a pinch between finger and thumb, well that is a huge distraction. My phone is nearly always about.
I have it in a heavy duty case, with the industry’s best heavy duty magnetic hook/hanger/stand.

There are other reasons… I am happy to explore privately if anyone wants to reach out, but it would probably bore most here.

I use the phone to monitor dozens of wi-fi cameras, control countless smart home devices, remotely check on the progress of my computer processes. Deftly reply to texts, etc.

If you watch a group around a meeting table, most will have their phones at the ready. They are not tickling their earlobes.

Furthermore, the Phone App, offers a far richer, deeper, interface. And it is SUPPOSED TO WORK. Consider that if the phone app has faults that we can see and which are obvious out in the open design failures - how should we have confidence that the countless inner functions don’t have flaws as well ? How ?

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