It is my humble opinion that you will find these answers by calling the individual makers for their specs. The sales reps which are the audiologists in most cases are trained in hearing audiology only. In most of our cases here, on this forum, the individuals have to try the HA’s for a few days, read the spec books, and call the company for specifics. We are truly all different in our needs and frustrations. The audiologists can only guide us so far and we buy the ones that work best. If you need a cochlear implant it would behoove you to call the maker along with your surgeon. I hope you find something to fit your specific needs I currently wear Jabra’s bilaterally from Costco. My all time favorites are Starkey’s which are real expensive (not sold at Costco). I’ve gone through several pair for the past 15 years. Good luck with the search.
I tend to agee with you that the actual information provided is way too little for those who want actual performance in a hearing aid. It is often very very difficult to get the information you need prior to purchasing said hearing aids. I do not need the depth of information you are requesting but as I get older and my hearing deteriorates I want more than the glossy information provided by the hearing aid companies AND the devices that they might be streaming to. It is a disservice to everyone that this is so hard to get.
As a software developer and somewhat “hobbyist electronics guy” I think it’s absolutely ridiculous how few tech specs are out for devices that are intended to supplement or in a sense replace an ear.
What’s worse is when these automated adjustment systems fail or otherwise do something stupid and there’s no way to diagnose or figure out what went wrong since many modern hearing aids are essentially treated as black boxes to the end-user
But Tenkan… sometimes I can spend a whole lot of time, scrutinizing, interpreting, unpacking, deciphering, …er studying as … as I been for quite some while now, trying to understand what you mean by “even tho” and “read a novel”. For as I understand it, everything requires thought! And a novel is mostly fiction… but the OP was being very real. Just so confusing… ah… well, back to my thoughts now.
tenkan / IGZO:
Sorry if the OP was long and ‘techie’ - I was trying to target the development audience.
The ‘short/non-techie’ consumer version of my OP for you:
HA provider, please answer these questions, preferably in consumer accessible literature like data sheets:
What is your latency in a program that a musician would use? As a musician, I need it to be short, like 5 ms or less for playing.
What is your maximum input . If I’m in a theater and the hits 123 dB SPL, what does your hearing aid do? Limit the loudness without distoration? Distort while the level exceeds your input range? Go into an extended duration impact to the sound? Have apoplexy or melt?
Can the fitting software turn off all dynamic changes (noise suppression, dynamic refocus, EQ adjustment, etc) in a given program? Any function that dynamically changes the sound will be a detriment in a studio mix room environment.
Can you set up program for an omnidirectional response (all directions equally sensitive and static levels) for surround sound environments like ATMOS or DTS-X while also turning off anything that will try to ‘avoid’ the typical FX noise in a sound track? Can you discuss how well the directionality of sound is perceived in these environments (either room speakers or streaming) assuming my hearing impairments do not further limit detecting the directionality (e.g. say I had normal hearing and was listening through your HAs).
Do your bands cover the frequency spectrum such that there is an even distribution of bands across each octave? Please tell me the center frequencies of your bands so I can confirm.
Could you consider providing a sound adjustment option in your APP that allows me to set a level on each of the bands you support rather than just a 3 band EQ? This would be useful to me for providing input to my audiologist about how he might consider adjusting my fitting, or for dealing with a situational problems like feed back or room modes.
Does your HA use de-tuning for feedback suppression. Can this be turned off? Does it not occur if I don’t have feedback (e.g. such as if I’m wearing double domes) ?
Hope this is short enough and also not obscured in engineering jargon.
catabrat: I have been calling the HA manufactures. I have not asked if they would be able to connect me with someone on their development teams but the “pro” line support (audiologists) could not answer most of the questions I mentioned.
Other things:
So the input dynamic range available depends on two things. The mic (Pickup, piezo, etc) dynamic range and the analog to digital converter (ADC). An inexpensive SPL meter (hand held device) typically can register up to 130 dB SPL. There are piezo pickups that can support this range, it seems, and they might be available in a format usable on HAs. Not sure if this affects power (battery life) or not, but I’m guessing not. The ADC then needs to be capable of sensing the voltage from the pickup and converting it to about a 21 bit range to cover 126 dB SPL. I think I saw in a link from someone’s info about the ‘new receivers’ that this tech has this kind of dynamic range. Not sure if existing tech that would be usable in an HA exists or not, but it appears it would be possible in future HA products.
Latency. So I’ve been saying less than 5ms. If you are just streaming audio (music), latency doesn’t matter. If you are watching video with sound and the latency is long enough, shots of people speaking will appear to be out of sync with the audio. Many TVs have adjustments to sync up the audio and video for audio targets that have latency. If you are in a situation where you are monitoring your music playing or singing, and the audio has latency say much larger than 5 ms, it’s going to start sounding ‘late’ or even like an echo. If you are not in such a live monitoring environment, latency probably doesn’t matter.
I can buy that streaming through Bluetooth is going to add latency - but for music program listening, this latency doesn’t matter as I said. ( in a movie theater might be another story).
And if Widex’s <15 ms spec is based on their streaming latency, then I would have preferred if the spec sheet had said something like:
Latency
PureSound Program 0.5 ms
Universal Program 2.5-3.5 ms
Other Programs < 15 ms
For consumers, audiologists, engineers - you don’t need to be techie to hear that your hearing is not what it should be. The hope is that a hearing aid will help someone with hearing damage hear better and maybe approach normal hearing - and they generally could, and sometimes do, maybe eventually, if you are persistent. The problem lies in trying to bridge between what you are hearing and getting the HA adjusted so that it sounds as normal as possible. In my experience, this is a frustration for customers and audiologists, complicated by the initial adjustment to a HA or a fitting change. And choosing between HA vendors is complicated by lack of access to information that might be important for your particular hearing loss or operational requirements. And it’s not like the HA manufactures have magic bullets and are keeping them secret either - they are trying help - I just would like to discuss my needs with someone who can give me their best answers. Most of my techie knowledge just makes me more aware of what I don’t know, can’t find out, or is generally unknown. Ultimately, I’m am limited by what cannot be fixed with my hearing no matter what.
Thanks for all the responses. Great information and some interesting tech and references.
Perhaps you should design hearing aids for musicians.
As someone the struggled for years to be able to understand speech. I am so happy to have my Oticon INTENT1 aids and be able to enjoy conversations. I have worn them to several concerts and was able to enjoy the concert. Present day hearing aids are improving as for as music is concerned for the average hearing aid users needs. I have been wearing aids for 20 years and have seen a world of improvement for my hearing needs. Like I said before hearing aids are designed for the needs of the ones of us that struggle to understand speech.
So maybe you need to head up a design lab to create a set of aids for musicians.
So many of us struggle just to understand what our spouse is saying to us, or to understand the instructions that our physicals are giving us. It isn’t that I wouldn’t love to enjoy music again itbis I just have my priority of understanding speech.
I am way behind your technical knowledge so I am responding only within my own range of knowledge and experience as a user and musician. My husband is an audio engineer, we are both performing musicians, and we have just started down the path. Check out some of the threads here on DIY for musicians. For context, I have Oticon More 1 (), so I am also coming up on choosing new hearing aids. For now, what I am finding overall is that a manufacturer’s version of a “music program” is a mix of slightly helpful and NOT helpful. These are made for streaming and not live music, especially being in the seat of a performer (not audience). Oticon has their own strange algorithm for streaming which absolutely doesn’t work for me, especially with me having loss in the lower frequencies. For now we have built a better music program in an “extra” program slot that my audiologist is going to move over to my regular music slot. We are working in tandem and she is very open to learning more about live/performing musician needs because that is not part of her training. Long-term we want to build a performing setting that is NOT built on the backbone of Oticon’s “music” program because we a) want to build it from the bottom up with nobody else’s pre-made assumptions and b) so that every time there is a firmware upgrade that includes changes to a “music” program we do not automatically lose our hard work to creating custom settings. I use bluetooth listening whenever possible but if I need headphones I use open-back ones. I realize that would not be as good if you need total isolation from outside noise. FYI moving forward I am trying not to borrow trouble but my two concerns are IEM’s and “auto-switching” between programs. If I need IEM’s moving forward I will probably get help programming actual IEM industry technology to compensate for my hearing loss. I’ve no idea what I’ll be contending with when it comes to auto-switching but that will be a focus of my research before choosing new HA’s. Lastly, if you possibly can, find an audiologist who is open to partnering with you rather than thinking they know best and/or not wanting to learn new skills for your unique programming needs.
cvkemp. I caught your priorities the first time. and yes being unable to understand speech is a problem that outweighs anything else. But I’m glad you think that music might be one of your secondary priorities, and that you enjoyed going to a concert.
Do you feel my thread should be about your priorities? Do you think hearing aids are not or should not be designed to handle music? Do you think musicians don’t need to communicate? Do you think musicians should not be posting on Hearing Tracker? Do you think hearing aids have improved so much over the years because no one told the manufacturer’s about what they think isn’t working so well? That’s what I’m hearing.
I’m a bit old and a bit too poor to start a hearing aid company. And if I did, I would try to design a hearing aid that worked well for both speech in noise, for music, and for musicians. But it’s basically unnecessary, these are already priorities of most major hearing aid manufacturers. And handling music better wouldn’t compromise programs that are configured for speech in noise, your (and my) first priority.
And in case you didn’t read the first paragraph of the OP, yes, I’m trying to help hearing aid manufacturers design better hearing aids for musicians. I would welcome a chance to interact with anyone in their organization that is willing to interact with me. It’s why I created this thread and that is what it’s about. If you don’t like that I want to talk about music on hearing aids and I’m conveying that on Hearing Tracker in this thread, maybe you would be happier participating in a different thread?
Or stick around if you like. I’m not saying your priority is wrong, and I’m not saying that conversation is not a priority for me. I’d be interested in how you felt your Oticon worked at the concert - how did it sound to how your remember music sounding when you could hear better? I think that the improvement’s in HAs for speech in noise are moving along at a rather fast clip and in the right direction. I’d just like the manufacturers to be a little more careful about not blowing up the music side of their hearing aids and helping their clients utilize their technologies to their fullest capability - for music and for conversation.
My comments are for the majority od people wearing hearing aids. I do volunteer work at the Veterans Administration clinics and talk to and help hundreds of Veterans like myself with hearing loss and the conversations always goes to understand what is being said and connectivity og their aids to phones, computers tablets, etc. I don’t think I every heard a complaint about not hearing music.
I am not saying music should not be important to you, and I feel that if it is that important to invest in a design lab to come up with aids for musicians. Perhaps they can make the design also improve aids for the ones that are still struggling to understand speech.
tenkan / IGZO:
Sorry if the OP was long and ‘techie’ - I was trying to target the HA development audience.
The ‘short/non-techie’ consumer version of my OP for you:
Firstly, I do not believe that I had in anyway been at all critical of your post.
I am lazy and busy, so forgive me if I do not track back over each of my words but I believe I was quite complementary, while possibly self deprecating as to expressing some humility in needing to invest time to parse more of your valuable detail.
Secondly, to the various responders suggesting that the OP should start this or that, I can only feel frustration as if the whole point is missed. RIC982 is articulating valuable reasons for why existing deficiencies within industry practices should be addressed. It is somewhat akin to calling the fire department. To then be told, to build a fire extinguisher, I don’t think is in keeping with the alert the caller is caring enough spell out . Sure, every OP first and foremost would like a solution to his problem or complaint. But those posts also serve as enlightenment to the existence of problems that only through recognition, could improvement ever be expected and improvements benefit everyone - those who know more, as well as the vast majority who don’t!
Either we work together to solve problems by motivating the powers that be to solve them, or we retreat from problems into the darkness of apathy.
Sitting with 3 others who were around a table all looking at the trio a ways away.
Question asked of me. 4 feet away. No idea. Shrugged my shoulders. Cupped my ears. A minute later she tried again. During a quiet spot I answered. “Selective hearing. “. I almost said Foff. Almost
We became 6 around the table. I could hear the gentleman I had just met for the first time.
I have Monday morning meets, my men’s Bible study group there is anywhere from 5 to 12 of us depending on the time of month and year. I use to struggle to the point i didn’t want to go to the meetings. That all started changing with the More1 aids, got some what better with the Real1 aids and now with the INTENT1 I can finally enjoy the meetings .
The receiver on the hearing aid is a small dynamic driver and for some, you could even locate the specific drivers on a supply site such as mouser. I don’t have any links and it’s not the simplest thing to locate. The low frequency amplification is a weak spot.
In hearing aids, there are no dynamic drivers (which offer a warmer impression of sound because of better low-frequency response, but lack precision in the important mid-frequencies for speech).
There’s a balanced armature - different technology, mainly from Knowles.
We all wait for xMEMS receiver technology with near-perfect frequency response in 20-20k range. There is a video by Dr. Cliff about it on YouTube.
However, at the moment, it consumes too much energy to use them with hearing aids.
@ric982, don’t know about your eligibility to that style of , but localisation and headphones experience could be better with /// styles. However, keep in mind that fitting them is more cumbersome (requires deep silicone impression of ear canal - Phonak offers useful tools like EasyView Otoblock and Titanium FitGuide, don’t know about other manufacturers).
Custom HAs, with abbreviations listed above are not for every hearing loss.
I have just read the whole thread and I agree that it is annoying to have no simple access to more technical knowledge. Everything is glossy marketing and I have a sense of lost time after reading/watching. For example, recently was introduced new Cochlear Nexa platform and in the information materials there are mainly generalities.
For example, I have previous platform and still don’t know about technical differences between “Everyday” program vs. “Work”. I think it is good to know about e. g. null points in directionality pattern, to stand appropriately in relation to the sources of noise, because the issue is more complicated than “just stand with your back to the noise”.
This is to RIC982.
I’m also in electronic engineering broadcast engineering and worked with so and my hearing really sucks. I don’t hear anything over 3.5 K. I want getting Starkey hearing aids might have four programmable variations. One is normally hearing one is crowd noise one is super and the other one is off. Can you set up for Wi-Fi and also $2000 another one is has 8 different positions they can equalize your your hearing. I was at work great I service myself. I have to have sent out once of my own appears that I couldn’t do also, just for your info. I have an iPad that has a audio spectrum analyze a software because when I worked broadcasting the rec room, some of the alarms for fans were about 5K but I could see them with the audio spectrum analyzer I’ve worked an audio obviously at one point we had a interview. We had a speech problem I was able to use an equalizer to make him more understandable. That’s why I take. Hope that helps.
I currently wear Jabra’s bilaterally from Costco. My all time favorites are Starkey’s which are real expensive (not sold at Costco). I’ve gone through several pair for the past 15 years. Good luck with the search.
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