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Welcome Joseph! (you are number 1 with me - even in binary!)
Just if I may… please proof read and try to make it as easy to understand as possible. Not only are you likely to get fewer meaningful responses when typos and syntax confuse readers, but also as hearing impaired we may be more attuned to visual and the written word, and some might be particularly perturbed by sentence syntax in need of study.
Write On Joe!
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So, lots more responses, I will try to make some comments
IGZO - didn’t find you were critical. I though maybe I was confusing you with some of the gargon in the O,P and tried to paraphrase.
CVKemp - if I misunderstood your intent, my apologies. Its great you are trying to help others.
I need to dig more in the xMENS info - sounds very hopeful - but probably outside my immediate need.
gedilin - great chart. The left scale is scales in octaves (which is how it should be) and you can see that some of the center frequencies are well distributed and some are more clumped to the high frequency range. And the two I were describing are shown. I’ve been trying to avoid vendor references but, they are present on the chart.
midsil - Hiding the information from audiologists (and clients) seems counter productive. They are relying on audiologist to sell and support their products. I’m somewhat curious that there isn’t some reference material for audiologists to deal with musican’s needs. I’m sure they do end up trying to help them, but the manafacturers would likely be helping themselves if they provided some guidance on what might be important to tweak in the fittings on a given hearing aid. I can sympathize with the manufacturers in that having to deal with a general access customer support line with a lot of detailed information available that would just lead to more questions would be a bit of a nightmare. I assume audiologists have a path for asking questions, but in my experience, it seemed to be difficult to get straight answers to some question, whether it got lost in translation, or was just given a generic response.
Hearing Potential. Helpful response. Thanks. So given sound propagates at about 1125 ft/s, I think the two inches difference between the and the should only be about 0.15 ms which is not going to be noticeable. Headphone manufactures use a model of an average human’s head with pinna and ear canals so they can measure the sound the HP makes at what would be the ear drum. This lets them tweak the headphone design so that it attempts to replace what a person would hear in a room with speakers. I would think the hearing aid manufactures have similar capabilities. What I would hope is that they would make these types of measurements and adjust how they process sound from the pickup(s) to model the directionality clues that the pinna would have provided. This is probably limited since there may only be one pickup or not enough to determine the actual position. Though they seem to be able to control ‘focus’ in a general sense" so I would think something should be possible. The reason that I was interested in head phones is because I had been getting by with one hearing aid - so streaming was not possible. At this point I’m looking two aids, so the HP issue will probably go away - streaming would work for music listening. But in a surround mix room, I’d be depending on the to handle directionality. Might just be something I’ll have to live with. A mantra from mixing world is “you can’t mix what you can’t hear”. This is not absolutely true in that you can leverage various ways to meter but those are not as informative as what normally hearing ears would tell you. My fall back on Widex Allure is WIdex Moment Shear. But that might just be what will work until that hearing aid fails. By them, there will be all new choices to pick from and the technology will likely have improved. But here’s an example that fits with my OP in this case. I used to have a Widex Beyond and am familiar with their app and fitting program. Widex Momemt has some improvements but as you say it’s kind of still able to be programmed to control things. WIth Widex Allure, I don’t know how their Universal, Puresound, and Music programs compare. I would guess the stock universal has more processing in the digital domain for speech in noise (2.5-3.5 ms latency). The Puresound is more of a direct path to processing (0.5 ms latency). And from their description, it tries to be ‘more immersive’ which I would guess is do some things to target front response for conversation, but still let some of the surround information in. They also seem to be doing some sorta of ‘environmental’ sensing in their 52 to band input spectrum analyzer and may use that to further adapt the focus, filter, adjust gains, others, etc. What I have no information on is their music program. Is it only for streaming (probably not)? Is it adapted for a concert environment with a forward stereo focus? Or is it maybe more immersive and lets some of the surround sound in? Or is it omnidirectional letting in sound from all around in? And what is the latency? <15 ms?!
catabrat (maybe repeating). I’ll pick on Widex here. If you go to their customer site and select contact, they basically tell you to see your local hearing provider. If you go to their pro site, they ask you to email them and you have to specify your ‘practice name’. I emailed them through this path (I don’t have a practice) and I didn’t get a response - at least not yet. There is also a pro support line you can call and I did get to talk to their audiologist though she didn’t have answers most of my questions. Jabra’s might be a possibility (but see below).
wvuflutist. Lovely post. Thanks for sharing and being so open. I’ll say that while I would definitely like to have access to a path, the manufactures generally will not allow a non-audiologist to down load their program. They are sometimes accessible through a 3rd party which I’ve read is probably a violation of copyright - though I’m not sure the risk of getting sued is all that great. And at least one vendor has moved their fitting software to the cloud which is going to prevent third parties from gaining access it to, as far as I know. I agree that having an audiologist open to helping you find the best setting for your situation is a big advantage. I think in practice this might fall apart because it may be hard to reproduce your situation in their office and doing a remote fit (if supported) in your performance environment could be problematic. I’m picturing a flute player between the cello and low brass sections, iphone on music stand, somewhere in the middle of the second movement saying -“OK change that setting now so I can see how it sounds”. Maybe an exaggeration, but you probably get my point. You should be able to modify any program even if it’s copied from one of the “standard” ones. From what I’ve seen, those selection just set up a ‘default’ setting" on the controls that can be adjusted after the fact. Bass response can be an issue - not familiar with OTICON, but Widex has a 125 Hz band which is not that low (the low note on a regular guitar is 80 Hz, the low note on a bass guitar or string bass is 40 Hz, pianos down to 27.5 Hz), but usually the lower base will flow through the hearing aid. If you don’t have LF hearing loss, you should be able to hear it. If you do, maybe the “new receivers” will help at some point. Someone above posted about an ear bud with some LF capabilities.
mindsil (2nd post): 20-20K hz xMEMS is very cool. Still have all the issues with not having access to detailed information from HA vendors, but the technology should definitely create amazing potential. I was initially thinking about customs. Putting the mic more inside the pinna should help make it sound more natural. I was looking at Resound’s M&RIC for a bit, but not sure about their latency and other specs. Widex Moment Shear has a RIC custom option but it’s using the pickups on the ear piece so not gonna fix the HP issue, But they also have ITE customs. Widex Allure dos not - at least so far. It was specifically for HP case that I was interested in this direction. I’ve had problems with earbuds fitting so maybe my ear canals are tight and I have had some worries about them falling out (though I’m not a very fast mover these days).
Joseph111- I can relate.
I’ve been avoiding discussion of my specific hearing issues because it wasn’t exactly germane to the OP, but others have been so open about theirs, I will provide some details.
I originally noticed my left ear hearing loss about 8 years ago after a sore throat that turned into a head cold focused on the left side. I though my eustacian tube was just plugged up, but after the cold dissipated, the hearing issue did not. Did a bit of experimenting with HPs, EQ, and compression, and found I was able to hear music pretty normally, at least up until the levels pushed the headphones out of their dynamic range (distortion). Testing frequency range, I couldn’t hear below 50 Hz in the left hear, but since LF is omnidirectional, my right ear was covering the low end without noticeable loss in bass response. Both ears could hear up to about 11K. I ended up getting one left ear aid. My audio gram was fairly flat, but down about 60 dBHL. The right ear was 0-20 dBHL with may be a dip at 4K. A. So pretty much, a simple amplifier like maybe a Jabra would have been a good choice. I got a Widex Beyond. I rejected the initial fit - the first day I had it, I had a practice with an Irish group - two guitars and 4 singers (I was singing and playing). The bass from the guitar (and to some extent my voice) was blowing out my ability to hear the other players and very distracting in general. I later I figured out I could use the 3 band EQ to turn the LF OFF and things were a lot better. Went through repeated trips to the audiologist trying to get the fitting adjusted and questions answered about various things. In the office, couldn’t stream because one HA. HPs not working as expected (very low gain on left side). So tune, go home test, and back again. Probably should have brought my guitar! Got to where in the room monitoring seemed OK. HPs not.
About 2 years ago, I was starting to lose more hearing in the right ear and also needing to up the gain in my left ear. My ear DR (not audiologist) noticed I had a Carhart notch indicating osteoporosis and suggested I might want to consider a Stapedotomy - 90%+ change of signifcant improvement. I will take ownership of making the decision to proceed with the surgery which ended up being a Stapedotomy. The ‘improvement’ in hearing should have occurred within about 2 weeks of the surgery. I didn’t get in to the office for about 6 weeks (scheduling) and was noticing some gradual improvement over time, but basically, the surgery was a failure. I have three issues - the is like -30 dBH from 125 - 250 and about -55 dBHL from 500 to 6K. Nothing at 8K as expected from the surgery. This should be fixable with a HA. But the bigger problem is that my speech recognition dropped from 98% to 50%, there was distortion, and most annoying, I"m hearing tire noise, compressors, fans, bass guitars and kick drums about 6 louder (1/3 octaves) than the right ear in the 100 -350 Hz range). Also distortion in vocal ranges. Some notes (B5, B6) off key by maybe 100 cents (half tone). Instruments were not sounding like they should, and generally sounding like my inner ear is pressurized (low fidelity muffled). Bad news in my hobby. It has gradually improved some over the last 15 months or so going from horrible to iffy. Most of the distortion is gone, the LF gain now is more like 2 dB louder than the right ear - but the right ear is maybe -20 -40 dBHL so probably can get this balanced with correction. I stopped wearing a hearing aid after the surgery - it had died and I didn’t feel it was time to replace it as things were changing. I’m about ready to try again. With testing on HPs with, gain and EQ correction, I can generally here full spectrum, but it is still like my ear is pressurized and there is some loss of fidelity. But instruments sound fairly reasonable (can tell them apart) and a podcast was fairly intelligible. I’ll have another audiogram in a few months and will see what the speech recognition is.
The surgery was a disaster. After figuring out that moving the ear piece in the HP fixed the sound, I was trying to decide between the surgery and an ITE custom. Unfortunately I chose the surgery. So anyway I’m hoping maybe having HA corrected response will give my brain a bit more chance to try to adapt to what is managing to get through my left ear. And some correction on the right side will at least help general hearing - including conversation and hearing my wife. Whether I can still function adequately in a mix environment is a matter of concern.
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I agree.
One thing I’d suggest is encouraging your audiologist to make certain adjustments to the music program - and onlly that program. 1) turn off all options: for example, feedback control. 2) Enter the same gain values for all 3 volume levels for each frequency gain setting. This eliminates tonal shifts during music dynamics. 3) Set the to max at each frequency. 4) Use higher powered receivers which can produce louder sound [at the expense of high frequency bandwidth that you probably can’t hear anyway].
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TechieTim:
So - this gets back to the OP in that I don’t know exactly what Widex Allure (for example) will let me do in their programs. And I have picked which I’m going to try (first?) and have available to try out. Any audiologists on board to answer that question on Allure’s music program relative to turning things off like feedback control and noise suppression?
On my Widex Beyond, we did (1). I’m not sure my fit range is outside of the low power receivers (especially now), but (3.4) is a possibility. And yes, can’t hear over 6K left ear so HF response not a concern. I’ve been thinking that maybe in the one HA case, we could have created a headphone program that significantly boosted the left gain left to compensate for the lack of gain from the HA with a HP (and this might have needed a higher power receiver). Still an option if I get only one next time. With two aids, I’m guessing they will both be equally low and maybe just pump up the HP (or HA) volume to compensate (maybe high power on left and low power on right). Your (2) is interesting. My tuning attempts with the audiologist tended to focus on the high range because that’s where my music listening would normally be. On the lower levels, we just shifted them by the same amounts as the high, but the default fit definitely had different values (lower gain on lower levels). I think your (2) gets down to making the HA be an amplifier with an EQ and no compressors.
I mentioned I was a bit confused about the gain table and compression values in the fit program. A typical compressor plugin in a DAW has a graph which with no adjustment would be a 45 degree line showing a linear 1:1 relationship between the input (X) and output (Y). The threshold and compression ratio would typically introduce a different slope on the top part of that line where the threshold determined the level at which the transition occurs and the ratio determines the slope of the top line. So a threshold of 70 with a 2:1 compression ratio would have have a change in slope start at 70 dB (on the input) and the slope of the top line would be 1/2 such that each 2 dB increase in the input level would create a 1 dB increase in the output. In the fit program, each band had three gains (which determine a compression ratio). Say the default gains are 13 (H), 21 (M), and 32(2). No sure what that means exactly in my described paradigm of a compressor. Different gains would different slopes. the transition points are fixed, and you just connect the lines? I’ll be interested to ask about doing what you’re suggesting with the audiologist (in only the music program) and hearing what it sounds like.
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P_L:
I’m not sure what you are suggesting. Had a discussion with the surgeon about whether there was any reason to think the surgery needed redoing, and the answer was no. Haven’t gotten a second opinion. But if you know a way, I’d like 0 dBHL in the 0-20kHz range. 
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ric982
I share your concerns and comments. Unfortunately this forum lacks any technical expertise. I discovered that in attempting to research JABRA’s 1st generation electronics. Propriety info is the issue that is inhibiting your views of the technical details. I wanted the details of the electronic hardware. Being in an electronics R&D environment I too sought technical data. Had four failures of my devices so I wanted to view the failure analysis reports but it was like going down a dead end street. Short of opening up the device and probing with a scope there nothing I could do they would not even tell me if the failures where hardware or software related. The worst was attempting to tell people in this forum about how Jabra is new to H.A. business and how difficult it is to enter a new field. The failures were related to that and now they are producing a 2nd generation after learning from their mistakes.
Finally got them to return my money and went with another manufacture which has been in the business for many years, but their software well that it is another story.
My only advice to you is to try before you buy so you can evaluate real time analysis.
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Yes, my suggestion for the music program is to make it effectively function as an EQ’d amp with no compression. In my case, i took the gain settings that were appropriate for mid volume at each frequency and plugged them into the low & high volume settings also. I acquired the software for Signia, Phonac, & Resound and found them to be similar. The terminology and settings are different than you find on a digital audio mixer, but with your tech knowledge you can figure it out I’m sure.
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The worst was attempting to tell people in this forum about how Jabra is new to H.A. business and how difficult it is to enter a new field. The failures were related to that
Sorry but I corrected you then and again now, Jabra are rebranded ReSound models, Jabra do not make , all they do is the marketing blurb/ hype, ReSound (Jabra) have been in the business a very long time, they know the industry very well
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@big.little What tenkan is saying about Jabra hearing aids is right. GN Resound brand their hearing aids as Jabra for Costco so that their very low prices don’t harm the market prices for Resound aids sold by anyone else. That’s all.
Resound hearing aids and Jabra hearing aids are identical in hardware and software.
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What are your thoughts on the frequency vs gain performance of the earpiece? Where I look at the gains settings for my , it does not seem to relate to what I am hearing even though the fitting settings from the audiologist should compensate for my hearing loss. High frequency response seems to be a lot better than mid or low range which I would think is consistent with the size of the transducer.
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Sorry but I corrected you then and again now,
I don’t do this often, but this is why some folks go into my ignore list. I’ve probably gone into other folks’ ignore lists. Unreasonable argument chaps me in at tender place.
WH
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Ric982, I know nothing about electronics, but I love music. My hearing problems has diminished my ability to hear and be moved by recorded music, and I appreciate your thread, because it’s been educational.
Unreasonable argument chaps me in at tender place.
Is it better to let misinformation stick around without reasonable correction? One person seems to think Jabra developed and manufactured a new line of and keeps repeating that falsehood. In fact, however, the only thing the Jabra folks created was marketing …um… stuff.
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Thanks!
My hearing instrument specialist is remarkable.
He sells lots of ReSound.
I’m slo pleased he took me on My Paradise P90R’s were set up terribly by the dispensing Audi who tried for a year and a half. New fellow has served me well from my first appointment.
@Neville has helped me so much! As have others who recommended I need moulded inserts
I was delighted. The area ReSound Manager attended when I received my new moulded inserts. She was most professional and helpful.
If workman’s compensation allows I shall consider ReSound in a year and a half.
DaveL
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@ric982 – You’ve just written the single most damning and accurate breakdown of the hearing aid industry I’ve ever seen.
I’m not an audio engineer, but I am a lifelong pianist and an obsessive headphone listener. And every word you wrote had me nodding in frustration, because it exposes what so many of us “aware listeners” go through in silence—or worse, get gaslit over.
Right now I’m wearing the latest Phonak Infinio Sphere model, running in full -driven “Spheric” mode. It’s technically advanced… and emotionally dead. It sounds clean in that sterile, processed way—like an over-EQ’d stream that’s been run through three A.I. algorithms and had the musicality stripped out. The intent of a note vanishes.
Before this I had Oticon—more natural sounding, yes, but always dipping and rising in volume like it was unsure of itself. Starkey? Too thin, too bright, too digital. Costco Philips didn’t help either. There’s a reason I bailed on each one, even if I’ve repressed a few of the details by now.
And that fitting process loop you mention? That endless back-and-forth to “tune it right”? It’s a full-time job. You try to describe what you’re hearing—phase weirdness, speech smearing, musical masking—and get a blank stare or a shrug in return. And always the same response: “Try this version of our Music program, it’s better now!” No, it’s not.
I’ve come to believe there’s a low-grade scam built into the whole system. Not in a malicious way, but in the structural way so many medical devices are sold. You’re locked out of the software, fed only glossy promises, and told to trust the system while paying $5,000–$7,000 for a device you can’t fully audition, adjust, or understand.
Latency specs? No clue.
Frequency band centers? Hidden.
True streaming latency? Undisclosed.
Input dynamic range? Ambiguous at best.
And don’t even ask to see the fitting software—we’re not “qualified,” they say.
Meanwhile, anyone who’s ever recorded a jazz trio or mixed a chamber orchestra knows: none of this should be a mystery. We just want a hearing aid that works with us, not one that assumes we’re children being protected from knobs and sliders.
So thank you for laying this bare. You’re not alone. And if any manufacturer out there is actually listening: give us a true musician’s mode. Give us full access. Give us control. Because until then, all these hearing aids might as well be black boxes wrapped in velvet-marketing—brilliantly marketed, frustratingly underperforming, and fundamentally unaccountable.
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Is it better to let misinformation stick around without reasonable correction? One person seems to think Jabra developed and manufactured a new line of HAs and keeps repeating that falsehood. In fact, however, the only thing the Jabra folks created was marketing …um… stuff.
My chapped condition wasn’t from your side of the argument, please be at ease. 
WH
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And don’t even ask to see the fitting software—we’re not “qualified,” they say.
You may not be aware, but we have an excellent category on this forum, just follow this link.
There are plentiful resources for musicians, and audiophiles with hearing loss on the web, and plenty of us have successfully tuned our aids for our musical preferences.
I won’t dispute any of your comments regarding how the industry is run, or the lack of knowledge on the part of so many providers, but dig in, and discover for yourself how to get the most out of your investment!
Just do a search on this forum to get guidance.
Give us full access. Give us control.
Here it is!
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Hey! Long but good. You articulate so many things that I have wondered about and asked about. As a musician with live and studio mixing experience I was going crazy with auto programming that interpreted noise. I had an audi who didn’t like my questioning. And I was using a product that made big claims but sounded horrible and over-processed. I’m now using Widex Allure with open cones. My low freqs are good and having some ambient sound provided me with good spacial awareness. The music program does not over-process and I do not notice any latency or slap back effect like my previous ones. I appreciate your curiosity and wish you the best. It’s good to hear music more effectively as well as hearing somebody say pass the gravy. 
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Give us full access. Give us control.
Here it is!
Unless you buy aids from a skeevy place that locks them…
WH
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Unless you buy aids from a skeevy place that locks them…
Yes that too, I just hate this aspect, it’s just not acceptable practice, but the industry accepts it without a blink of an eye.
Also for anyone else, some information for those that want/value music over anything else.
https://grandpianopassion.com/category/hearing-music/1
https://musicandhearingaids.org/1
And this one from Dr Marshall Chasin himself.
Dr Marshall Chasin, Musicians' Clinics Canada1
Dr. Marshall Chasin at the Musicians' Clinic Canada
Musician health and hearing publications1
Musicians' health and hearing information publications
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