Skip to content
HearingTracker
Log in

Spheric Speech in Loud Noise and Roger On

19 replies690 viewsLast reply

Link to this topic
Reply

I’ve been wearing Phonak Infinio 90 Sphere for about 13 months. Prior to purchase I was advised that there would be situations where I would still need my Roger On, given the level of hearing loss I have. My Roger On is v.1 with firmware upgraded to v.3

Background noise when using the Roger On is louder than when I am in Spheric Speech mode. I did a deep dive on the internet and looking for confirmation.

When using the Roger On, Spheric Speech mode is bypassed, so using the Roger On with Infinio Spheres would be similar to using Roger On with any other Phonak . I do have Noise Block set to MAX in Phonak Target for Roger Direct + mic. My Roger On seems to work best in pointing mode when in a loud environment. My experience is similar to using Roger On with my Lumity 90s.

I guess I was falsely under the impression Roger On would enhance my Spheric Speech mode but that doesn’t appear to be the case. It would be nice if the future generation of Roger On included it’s own Spheric Speech chip.

Opinions?

11 people in this conversation9 min readJump to latest

Yes, you are correct, at least, I share your observations. I bought the Sphere and Roger On earlier this year. I thought there would be some synergy between the Sphere and Roger On in background noise. I got this information from Copilot, and I am unsure of its source. But apparently, the argument was that the Sphere would be optimised by the Roger On because of the mic placement. However, when I tried the combination in a loud noise situation, all I received, unfortunately, was very loud noise.

So, my conclusions were: When in loud noise, just rely on the Sphere. When in a room, like a classroom where people were at a distance, and talking (not a loud noise situation), then use the Roger On. Both work independently, but not together.

On your last comment, I am in agreement. Wouldn’t it be great if they put the Spheric speech chip in the Roger On. I think this was hoped for in v.3, but it didn’t happen.

I have both the Spheres and Roger ON3 and my Roger ON3 is being used as a TV streamer for the most part. But when I go to meetings I use the Roger ON3 as a pointer mic to better hear individuals talking around the large room.

@orgullodemexico said:

I guess I was falsely under the impression Roger On would enhance my Spheric Speech

Roger On is a direct streaming device, which means the signal does not go through Bluetooth. It connects directly with the .. It has its own noise suppression electronics built in, so the analog signal is converted to a digital stream and the background noise suppressed before being sent to the HAs.

The digital signal is processed by the ERA chip, but since the background noise has already gone through one round of cleaning in the Roger On, it is not routed through the chip for further suppression. Likely doing so would make voices sound muffled and harder to understand.

Because the Sphere i90s have to use its wireless radio to get the digital audio from the Roger On, it requires extra power from the battery. The additional power drain from using both the neural chip and the Roger On at the same time would drain the hearing aid batteries fairly quickly. (but they are big batteries!)

Phoank has to balance the sales of the Roger On against the sales of the Sphere i90s. If the noise suppression in the On is as good as in the i90s, why upgrade?

I have the On, Select and Clip on. I got them from an eBay discounter awhile back. I bought them to use with my Paradise aids. I paid around $500 for all three. Since I got my i90s, I haven’t used the On and Select much. I use the On and Select mostly to stream TV when there’s no Bluetooth connection available. I’ve never needed them for noisy backgrounds. I attach the Clip on to my landline speaker phone with the volume turned down very low. The Clip on streams the landline into my hearing aids like a Bluetooth phone call.

Hope you find a happy balance.

Edited

You are correct in noting that Spheric Mode does not always function effectively with the Roger On. During my follow-up adjustment of my Audeo I90 Sphere with my , I related similar noise issues when using my Roger. The AuD informed me that this issue had been previously reported and made an adjustment to my hearing aids, which he stated would mitigate the sound in certain situations when using the Roger. Additionally, he suggested experimenting with the Mute setting. He inferred that my normal low-frequency hearing increased the Roger, with Spheric noise issue I had.

The Roger On adjustments have enhanced my listening experience in noisy environments, but I rarely bring it now since Spheric Mode alone provides exceptional performance for me.

As @cvkemp mentioned, the pointer mode remains effective in meetings, although Spheric Mode remains the most suitable mode for me in approximately 95% of highly noisy situations.

Furthermore, I utilize it as a TV streamer and employ the pointer mode while using the Roger with a different TV in a larger family room. To achieve this, I turn on the pointer mode and tilt the device at approximately a 45-degree angle towards the soundbar beneath the TV, ensuring that it remains in the pointer mode without engaging with the Roger mode lock feature.

Good Luck,

David

My experiences have been similar with the Paradise plus On and now Sphere plus On.

I still need the On for large rooms such as board meetings, and especially for museum and excursion tours in Europe. Any type of tours. The tour guide wears the On and I can hear from behind and from a way down the street or around a corner.

Also for a soft spoken friend so I can stop leaning toward her.

Otherwise, For noisy environments, I find my Sphere works better.

@LawyerFL said:

I still need the On for large rooms such as board meetings

There are situations where I probably should have used my On’s. I just forgot to bring them, and so far the i90s have worked well enough; I was okay. No more board meetings for me, and if I were still discussing billable hours, I definitely wouldn’t want to hear that too well.

I guess the new gen of should come with reminder prompts.

A remote mic can provide better signal-to-noise enhancement than , roughly 22 mic vs 12 dB AI. Basically it’s because the remote mic captures the audio at the source before it degrades travelling across a room and with the noise mixing in. Ai tries to reconstruct clean audio after the fact. My analogy here is having your dessert hand delivered to your table vs. having it thrown across the room then asking AI to put it back together. It’s important with remote mics to mute hearing aid mics when in use, something Phonak mics do for you in loud noise. Another consideration is open vs . Keep the noise out as much as you can.

Edited

A remote mic is less effective when there are multiple talkers as the will focus on the dominant talker in the room. Also, the remote mic will only achieve such a high signal to noise ratio if the dominant speaker is very close to the mic - 20 to 30cm and they are the only person close to it and the background noise is farther away.

Useful topic for me too. with my I90s and Roger On. My experience mirrors that of the other contributors. My addition is that my ski-slope is much more severe once it starts going down than anyone else’s in this chat string. (essentially deaf about 2K Hz). So I widen the sample space a bit and come to the same conclusion so the conclusion seems very solid and generalizable. Plus we got a good idea of some situations in which the combination will still help. Thanks to all contributors! :grinning_face:

In reply to @orgullodemexico

@orgullodemexico said:

I do have Noise Block set to MAX in Phonak Target for Roger Direct + mic.

Have you tried environmental balance slider maxxed out toward "Roger only" input? In my former Paradises I have even turned microphones off by 3 second pressing of the down button on rocker swith in body.

@sufhl said:

Another consideration is open vs closed domes. Keep the noise out as much as you can.

Or power domes, which would be more suitable to hearing loss like yours. Not to mention probably the best effect with custom earmolds with very small or no vent, like in my case.

Deep placement is also important:

  1. to minimise the risk of feeling occlusion effect and
  2. in case of profound losses getting additional "free gain" due to Boyle's law when space (volume in cm³) between receiver outlet and eardrum is decreased.

Another issue is having UP receiver instead of P due to avoiding receiver saturation and getting more peaks of the speech before clipping, which provides more cues of speech, especially in noise.

I risked to getting an UP despite being theoretically eligible for M receiver according to fitting range and despite having my low frequency hearing "too good" for that receiver.

That risk was one of the best decision in my HA life, but only with properly occluded earmold (maximum 1mm diameter, but in my case better with no vent).

In reply to @orgullodemexico

The spheric speech in noise setting uses a separate destination in autosense OS (or a manual programme) and cannot be used in a streaming programme which includes streaming from a Roger device. I don't think the chip can be powered up for long durations at the same time as a streaming signal is being processed. Pending trademarks for "roger on sphere" indicate that the chip is likely to be incorporated into the next version of the Roger On.

It was announced two days ago and it is not available for purchase until mid-November.
I do not know what you mean by "if it has synergy ...": it is compatible with the Sphere models (article says it is compatible with products in the Sonova portfolio including the Naida, Virto and Advance Bionics " just like the old Roger was.
 

In reply to @LawyerFL

It works just like any of the previous generation of Roger On microphones. It has the modes of operation: table, pointing, stereo, presenter, headset and streaming (when connected to laptop etc).

The difference though between this device and all in the previous range is that Phonak has incorporated the Sphere technology which basically separates speech from noise. So your hearing aids will receive pre filtered audio where the backgroud noise has been removed.

The device will work with any hearing aids that have the roger receivers, so it is basically backward compatible. So any hearing aids (including non Phonak aids) that were using the neck loop, or Roger X adapter, will work. Or any aids with the roger receivers installed directly (Phonak), such as the Infinio Sphere and Eon will also work.

In reply to @LawyerFL

HearingTracker2Phonak Roger On Sphere: AI Hearing Tech Just Changed!

I think it's a shame that newest Integro sound processor doesn't have Sphere chip. That looks like marketing strategy to sell mote Roger On Spheres?

However, that sound processor has also Autosense OS 5.0, which is old Lumity (2022) technology, so I wonder about heaviness in transferring technology among Sonova manufacturers.

I think all technologies require optimization for due to the differential mode of stimulation. The research team for CI will be smaller than it is for hearing aids as the market is smaller. I wouldn't expect the latest technologies to reaching CI at the same time. Even market leader Cochlear is a generation behind with signal processing and most of their research budget goes to CI.

It will be interesting to get feedback from CI users as to how much better Roger is with the sphere technology. It may be less than we think given the different mode of stimulation. Testing it via accessories that will be manufactured irrespective is a safer commercial bet than putting it into CI and finding that the benefits weren't worth the additional cost. Either way, there'll be answers and the right decision will be made in the long run.

Related discussions