Hi All -
I have finally acquired a hi-pro and my audi graciously has helped me with cables and truefit software (I was burning him out on tuning visits and was quite eager to learn the software and programming…). It is a learning experience but infinitely better than driving an hour and rushing through a fitting session in an office…
I have spent about 8 hours with the software to date and trying different tuning strategies with my aids (power receiver with power domes), and would be very interested in sharing experiences/tips with any other self programmer (or audiologist) if anyone is interested. There are lots of variables, but eventually it all starts to make sense – the documentation is Very thin on real content (like what does this setting do?) so plenty of trial and error, but thankfully I have some audio engineering and programming background so it is not all greek…there is definitely some art involved.
Thanks
Ford
In the fitting/tuning section there are adjustments for Soft/Mod/Loud Controls and /GAIN/CR – I assume the first is output and latter input? I think I get the relationship between compression and the low/mid/high output response: lowering the high setting for a frequency range without lowering the low setting increases compression – there is only one output + compression which determines relative output in the low/mid/high range. I know in music applications (electric guitar) setting a preamp (gain) high with output stage lower will tend to “warm” a signal with some (not undesirable) distortion artifacts… while setting gain low with output high is typically the “cleanest” signal. What is the best approach in setting overall volume with respect to adjusting Gain or output?
There are several “views” on the graph in which depict output – what is the difference between Real Ear and Real Ear, SPL 2cc and SPL Ear Simulator?
in the fitting/configure features settings, what are the “Highest Priority”, “Lowest Priority”, and Sensitivity settings and how do they function?
I am sure there are more but this would help illuminate.
Also, the holy grail would be an optimum music setting (I am a professional musician). Typically I would like to get as close to unity gain at all the frequencies as possible – the compression process and kicking in between the three setting ranges in a dynamic music setting can be very distracting… I would want any compression to have a very quick release… any thoughts on approach for music specifically (it is very different application than for speech obvioulsly…).
In the fitting/tuning section there are adjustments for Soft/Mod/Loud Controls and MPO/GAIN/CR – I assume the first is output and latter input? I think I get the relationship between compression and the low/mid/high output response: lowering the high setting for a frequency range without lowering the low setting increases compression – there is only one output + compression which determines relative output in the low/mid/high range. I know in music applications (electric guitar) setting a preamp (gain) high with output stage lower will tend to “warm” a signal with some (not undesirable) distortion artifacts… while setting gain low with output high is typically the “cleanest” signal. What is the best approach in setting overall volume with respect to adjusting Gain or output?
There are several “views” on the graph in which depict output – what is the difference between HL Real Ear and SPL Real Ear, SPL 2cc and SPL Ear Simulator?
in the fitting/configure features settings, what are the “Highest Priority”, “Lowest Priority”, and Sensitivity settings and how do they function?
I am sure there are more but this would help illuminate.
Many thanks
Ford
1 - Soft/Mid/Loud vs /Gain/CR essentially is the same thing and it controls only the output side. Soft/Mid/Loud essentially is a gain and compression control. If you are savvy enough, you should be able to use either control to do what you need. There is no such thing as one setting as being the best. That is why you have multiple program options for manual access. Keep in mind the hearing aids primary function is to ‘restore’ speech for maximum resolution, not music. You will probably have to build yourself a specific manual program for your music.
I have even gone so far as disabling the AutoPro4 setting and only allowing manual access programs for some people who are picky enough to know the differences.
2 - The views are simply for the techy who wants to know the gain/output levels in the various measures that we generally use. I rarely pay much attention to those values because they are estimations of what is ‘real’.
3 - the sensitivity and priority controls are specifically for the AutoPro4 feature. Unless needed, I generally leave them at default settings.
Also, the holy grail would be an optimum music setting (I am a professional musician). Typically I would like to get as close to unity gain at all the frequencies as possible – the compression process and kicking in between the three setting ranges in a dynamic music setting can be very distracting… I would want any compression to have a very quick release… any thoughts on approach for music specifically (it is very different application than for speech obvioulsly…).
Tuning your hearing aid for music is a very different animal. I highly recommend you not rely on the default settings. If you want to use the AutoPro4 settings, go in and manually change the settings for the music mode. However I would personally recommend you set up a manual program for your music. When you stated that a more linear with a wide dynamic range approach of amplification would be cleaner, you are dead-on accurate, but this doesn’t always work. Start with the default setting and potentially even try the custom settings for the type of music you play and work outwards from there.
1 - Soft/Mid/Loud vs MPO/Gain/CR essentially is the same thing and it controls only the output side. Soft/Mid/Loud essentially is a gain and compression control. If you are savvy enough, you should be able to use either control to do what you need. There is no such thing as one setting as being the best. That is why you have multiple program options for manual access. Keep in mind the hearing aids primary function is to ‘restore’ speech for maximum resolution, not music. You will probably have to build yourself a specific manual program for your music.
I have even gone so far as disabling the AutoPro4 setting and only allowing manual access programs for some people who are picky enough to know the differences.
2 - The views are simply for the techy who wants to know the gain/output levels in the various measures that we generally use. I rarely pay much attention to those values because they are estimations of what is ‘real’.
3 - the sensitivity and priority controls are specifically for the AutoPro4 feature. Unless needed, I generally leave them at default settings.
So there is not a two stage setup (gain and output) in the aids correct?
I do have a dedicated music program that I am working on which I set for performance situations – until now though, still trying to tweak the quiet speech setting as a start. It seems to work best to spend an hour doing some small changes, then try that for a day, then try some more small changes…I trust I will eventually get there…I actually like the auto program setting as it really helps in dynamic speech settings (like parties etc…).
Gain/CR or S/M/H are similar controls, Output is the . I guess that could be called two stage.
I generally tune hearing aids geared towards prefered listening levels or PLL. So this sets the stage for overall gain. Think of this as you would based on how loud you would have to set the TV to hear comfortably and clearly. Then make the hearing aids as loud as that. Ideally if you did this right, a ‘normal’ hearing person who sets the tv volume at their preferred volume, should sound totally normal to you as well. I am simplifying of course but this helps you with a frame of reference.
Gain/CR or S/M/H are similar controls, Output is the MPO. I guess that could be called two stage.
I generally tune hearing aids geared towards prefered listening levels or PLL. So this sets the stage for overall gain. Think of this as you would based on how loud you would have to set the TV to hear comfortably and clearly. Then make the hearing aids as loud as that. Ideally if you did this right, a ‘normal’ hearing person who sets the tv volume at their preferred volume, should sound totally normal to you as well. I am simplifying of course but this helps you with a frame of reference.
That helps yes –
It would be really good to know just how the auto program switching works, and how to correctly adjust the sensitivity for changing. I find that this feature is quite helpful in concept, but can be disorienting in some situations and would really like to optimize the sensitivity. What exactly triggers a switch to another of the 4 programs? Is it a certain threshold at a certain frequency range?
Dedicated programs are great, and if I remember to carry my remote control can take take the only manual switching approach… but if there is a way to optimize the auto feature this would be ideal.
The AutoPro4 setup is a little bit cumbersome… you need to manually tune each program in the AutoPro4. Sensitivity is based on how fast it switches from one program to the other… the higher the sensitivity, the faster it leaves the Quiet program setting and goes into the designated program. How the hearing aid knows what setting it should be in is based on what the processor ‘thinks’ the environment sounds like.
That makes sense – it would be helpful to know how the Moxi “thinks” what environment is like…
Perhaps someone who has access to a unitron moxi engineer could enlighten.
I imagine the environs go from quite to max noisy, though I know you can effectively put any program in there. Do you know if they switch linearly (1, 2, 3, 4) or does the Moxi go directly to the one it thinks is best?
Thanks for the discussion - it helps to bounce these things off of other experienced folks.
Ford
That makes sense – it would be helpful to know how the Moxi “thinks” what environment is like…
Perhaps someone who has access to a unitron moxi engineer could enlighten.
I imagine the environs go from quite to max noisy, though I know you can effectively put any program in there. Do you know if they switch linearly (1, 2, 3, 4) or does the Moxi go directly to the one it thinks is best?
Thanks for the discussion - it helps to bounce these things off of other experienced folks.
Ford
Futzes around in a triangle mixing the bits together until decides which is the most dominant signal. Music is a separate destination completely.
The auto pro 4 is also under the influence of the cross-head mic array, so if you start messing with it too much, you’ll lose the performance advantage it gives you.
Futzes around in a triangle mixing the bits together until decides which is the most dominant signal. Music is a separate destination completely.
The auto pro 4 is also under the influence of the cross-head mic array, so if you start messing with it too much, you’ll lose the performance advantage it gives you.
Is there a paper or some technical documentation someplace that explains in more than just rudimentary detail the inner workings (in theory) of the Moxi – like how does this mic array actually work…? This would be really helpful in trying to understand how to program these things.
Thanks
Ford
Is there a paper or some technical documentation someplace that explains in more than just rudimentary detail the inner workings (in theory) of the Moxi – like how does this mic array actually work…? This would be really helpful in trying to understand how to program these things.
Thanks
Ford
The mic array system was established in 2010 with the first Phonak Spice products.
The way the switching/mixing is accomplished by Unitron is likely to be a fairly well maintained proprietary mix of calculation, based on the performance of each processed input vs a given goal. It won’t always be right, but it gives you the ‘best’ sound that the system can achieve at any given point. All Unitron have really done is incorporated the Autozoom function of the Spice platform into their destination based approach (Autopro 4).
Any luck with programming yet? I just got a set of Moxi Pro. I have a back ground in electronics, computer network engineer and have been a part time sound engineer for the past 15 yrs(Might be part of my Deafness). I got my from the and its hard to get in for adjustments. I have been looking in to getting a icube to do my own programming. I also will be pick up a Smart Control so I can change the programs. It would be nice to change tips when we get setup.
Plugging away at it - it is a little complicated and lots of trial and error - not always intuitive and what you think should happen does not always produce expected results. The smart control is a must have for sure. PM me when you have dug into it a bit and will be happy to to share with you what I have found so far… judging from your you should have better results than what I have as your numbers are not nearly as bad as mine…:-).
Plugging away at it - it is a little complicated and lots of trial and error - not always intuitive and what you think should happen does not always produce expected results. The smart control is a must have for sure. PM me when you have dug into it a bit and will be happy to to share with you what I have found so far… judging from your audiogram you should have better results than what I have as your numbers are not nearly as bad as mine…:-).
I have phonak Ambra micro p and program myself. my audio gram is similar 25 to 1000, 55 at 2000 to 65-75 at 3000 and on. Just enough loss to make conversation in noise difficult. If you have conventional vented ear molds just for perspective , in streaming music or in music program, put your fingers over the vents and note the sound difference.
Wales, UK