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GN Hearing first to support direct Android streaming using ASHA

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In reply to @z10user2

@z10user2 said:

I seem to recall that most if not all of these digital aids have an e2e transmission protocol between each aid running at something like 2.4.

The Marvels use Bluetooth at 2.4 GIGAHertz. The Signia/Rexton (originally Siemens) system uses 3.4 MEGAHertz2, or nearly 1000 times lower in frequency. That is where the improved ear to ear transmission reliability comes from. That said goes direct from the phone to each ear because it can connect to two devices at the same time. The e2e is used for microphone directionality and Cros/BiCros purposes.

In reply to @darylm

There are bugs in everything, even in Apple land. There have been many iOS updates that have completely crippled streaming, and this is from Apple which have a significantly smaller pool of phones to support.

Yes Google engineers are smart but they don’t often release products and services that are ready to go. If it doesn’t earn them money or provide them with enough personal data to sell, I’m afraid may not last and we will have to wait for the Hearing Aid Bluetooth profile to become adopted.

In reply to @bigaltavista

I’m not familiar with the Airpods, but I suspect I have no need for them, as I have hearing aids.If they use to go direct to each ear, that is the same as MFi. The issue with the Phonak system is that they use Classic Bluetooth (not BLE) and go to one ear only and then use Classic Bluetooth again to go from that ear to the other ear.

@Sierra said:

I’m not familiar with the Airpods, but I suspect I have no need for them, as I have MFi hearing aids.

Much, much, much greater dynamic range IF music listening is important to you (it is very high priority for me). Plus they fit in my ear outside my open domes so I get the bass and low mids from when outside on long walks, or sitting at a cafe reading, grazing on a big salad. Since the music is literally in my ears, I don’t miss any high end where my hearing loss is greatest.

Edited

In reply to @bigaltavista

I was a software developer when I got out of school, so I know about bugs. Obviously there are bugs in every piece of software, but the majority of them are relatively inconsequential. has some bugs, but overall, it works very well. It’s certainly less clunky than Classic. The HFP and A2DP profiles are old, so it would be a surprise if a new technology (i.e., / MFi) did not make significant improvements over it.

You implied there would be bugs that are severe enough to prevent from working well enough to survive. With all due respect, your assertion is ridiculous and unfounded. I challenge you to provide any evidence to support it.

Also, Google and the companies are not so stupid to think ASHA will be an overnight success. Anyone can look at the Android dashboard and see the number of units running the various versions. If the HA companies were too stupid to figure this out, they would be too stupid to be in business. They are in business making remarkable products that get better every iteration, so I will give them the benefit of the doubt that they understand their respective products and markets.

I have Sony WH1000MX3 Wireless Bluetooth headphones that are widely considered industry leading. They use Bluetooth Classic. The sound is stunning. If there were something better than Bluetooth Classic for wireless, I would think the Sony engineers would be using it.

In reply to @darylm

I can’t provide evidence of not working (it’s been released in a highly controlled fashion and has not been available for long) however I will give you an alternative.

Motorola G5 plus phones with Android OS version 7.0 and paired to a set of Marvel devices had a unique problem where the phone call was streamed to the non master ear only. The main ear still worked for own voice pickup however no phone signal was streamed to that war only the other ear.

We tried other Bluetooth headsets which worked fine. We also reported this to Phonak and they pretty much shrugged their shoulders.

The problem was then resolved when Motorola pushed out an update to Android version 8.1. Now it could have been solved by general improvements from Google or vendor adjustments in the software from Motorola, but I would argue only hearing the phone in one ear is a pretty major bug.

In reply to @TraderGary

Your headphones use a pretty specialized classic profile which not really a close comparison with hearing aids. They have a large battery and the internal connection from the BT receiver is wired, which isn’t possible with . They use LDAC which is a proprietary sony codec (not supported by all devices) to get the highest sound quality, again, not a good comparison with hearing aids. They use SBC when not connected to a device that supports LDAC. SBC has quite high latency, which is not a problem for music, but not suited to gaming or when there is video. Also would not be well-suited for hearing aids, because latency between the actual sound and the amplified sound would cause difficulty hearing.

The difference with BT Classic and is that streaming over BLE requires device support, because BLE has no standard streaming profiles. BLE is at a much earlier stage in its development than BT Classic.

Again, in your headphones, Sony is really pushing the capability of BT Classic by using its proprietary LDAP codec.

Is it cheap? What’s your evidence for this?

It’s certainly simpler to do Bluetooth classic when there is a wire connecting left and right earphones but when they are wireless it’s a lot more complicated.

I can’t imagine it’s cheaper than using their own protocol. Using their own protocol means they can avoid using a standard - Apple hates using standards.

I agree with MDB that predictions are hard, especially when it comes to the future! One thing that’s assumed in all these discussions is the hegemony of Europe in hearing aids and Google and Apple as mobile OS providers but with the revolution possibly coming in the U.S., the rise of the Far East, trade wars, etc., the future could be murky - U.S. fighting with China over HuaWei products, etc. Everything could end up a Balkanized mess. With OTC availability, a bunch of people will be turning to more economical solutions for mild to moderate loss or just to hear better in noisy social situations even if they have otherwise normal hearing. They won’t be buying premium Phonak products for that. Just as Android has spread because much of the world doesn’t want to spend a ton of money on a phone, coming built-in with Android could dovetail nicely with economy-minded people looking for OTC hearing solutions. Will Apple just sit by and let it’s past MFI advantage slip away or go after the OTC crowd, too? Phonak’s “universal connectivity” is proprietary and unless Phonak wants to license it relatively inexpensively to other premium and OTC HA OEM’s, I think Phonak is going to end up in the position that Mercedes-Benz and BMW are with cars. Amongst the best you can get, a wonderful status symbol, but something that the well-off but not the masses own. Even $1500 for a pair of HA’s at Costco is a bunch of money if you can get OTC HA’s from Amazon for $600. People will want to use the OTC’s with their phones. Will Apple, Android, Phonak be inside the OTC HA’s? Or just like Samsung wants to sell you its own proprietary smartwatch with the Tizen OS, will they have their own OTC HA’s (think premium earbuds!) to go with their phones? (I’m looping back to my intro and thinking of just extending the Balkanization of premium HA communication that exists today to OTC HA’s if the world can’t get together and agree on a truly universal open-source standard).

@jim_lewis said:

Phonak’s “universal connectivity” is proprietary

How can something be proprietary when it can connect to just about anything? What it does for itself internally doesn’t matter. It’s what it can connect to that does. Proprietary is when the only thing you can connect to is your own device or having paid a license for access and functionality to another proprietary device.

In reply to @bigaltavista

Only Apple knows for sure why they chose this implementation. Apple is pretty notorious for imposing proprietary interfaces on its customers, but perhaps they decided it was better to go with an existing open standard to avoid the backlash they would have received had they done otherwise.

In reply to @TraderGary

@TraderGary said:

I have Sony WH1000MX3 Wireless Bluetooth headphones that are widely considered industry leading. They use Bluetooth Classic. The sound is stunning. If there were something better than Bluetooth Classic for wireless, I would think the Sony engineers would be using it.

I suspect they may be running a wire from one ear to the other so they don’t have to go wireless from ear to ear. That allows them to send the audio for both ears to one side, and then transfer to the other.

In reply to @jim_lewis

You can’t buy a Rolex at Costco but you can buy a Phonak hearing aid!

If Phonak wanted to maintain the high end of town and be a status symbol they wouldn’t be in Costco or other low margin chains such as Specsavers. They wouldn’t even offer lower performance levels (e.g. B30) and only offer a premium option.

I think Phonak is probably just trying to strike whilst the iron is hot and take advantage of the gap to the competitors.

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