Do Phonak Marvels have a fading problem?

It is not based on belief. Do you own a set of Marvels? It is a very simple test. The continuation of the stream can not be explained by your perception of how it is supposed to work.
Of course there must exist some sort of synchronization between the HA’s so they both know how to decode their left or right part of the BT classic stream. That does not necessarily have to be anything like BT (but probably is BLE).

Sorry, hearingtracker3, you are just dead wrong.

Marvels use BT Classic to stream to one HA (R by default), and it uses BT Classic to stream to the other HA. It does NOT use any of the BLE channels to stream audio. Only one HA connects to the phone as a BT audio device, and Phonak has said unequivocally that it uses BT Classic to stream to the R, and BT Classic to stream from the R to the L, with built in latency in the R audio path to equalize the delay from R to L.

Experimentally: I stream music from Google Play Music on my Android 9.0 Samsung Note 10+. I hear it through both HA’s.

1. If I shut off my L, the BT puts the app into pause. When I hit play again, it plays in the R. If I look in my phone BT settings, the “R-Phonak hearing aid” device is still connected.

2. Turn the L back on, get streaming going to both.

3. If I shut off my R, the BT puts the app into pause. When I hit play again, it plays from the phone, Nothing plays from the L. If I look in my phone BT settings, the “R-Phonak hearing aid” BT device is disconnected.

You may be thinking about the TV Connector. This devices uses Phonak AirStream protocol, not BT, and appears to stream to each HA individually.

I have Marvel M70-R’s.

And note, Marvel’s do NOT support MFI streaming (which is a supra-BLE protocol).

This is the best I’ve found: https://www.phonakpro.com/content/dam/phonakpro/gc_hq/en/resources/evidence/white_paper/documents/technical_paper/insight_bluetooth_classic_for_hearing%20aids.pdf18

The LE BT is just for data transmission. The part that is fuzzy for me is that it states that Classic BT can stream to only one hearing aid at a time so it seems to imply streaming from one HA to another via BT?

(from the article)

"…dedicated algorithm was developed that extends the Bluetooth capabilities to allow streaming to both ears. "

They’re not talking about streaming from the phone to both ears directly. They’re talking about streaming to one ear, then streaming from there to the other, and their “dedicated algorithm” compensates dynamically for the latency of streaming to the other ear so both ears hear the sound with the right timing.

Phonak apparently likes being vague about their technology. Or else they have writers or translators who don’t understand tech so they talk in gross generalities.

And yes, they are able to go through or around the head. I have a co-worker who engineered such antennas for a bluetooth earbud project years ago and he said it was a nightmare but they developed something that had very high performance.

Nice article find, MDB.

John,
I’ve had my Marvel 90R aids since they first came out last December. I have an iPhone 7 Plus so perhaps the results are different for you with Android 7?? I have excellent music streaming with plenty of bass and very good separation. The sound is very close to the sound I get with my Bose Headphones which I hardly ever use anymore. I just had Haggis confirm that I have the large closed domes on my aids so perhaps that is helping with the bass. It is my understanding that the Marvels do use Bluetooth Classic for streaming, phone calls, etc. In my case absolutely no latency problems when streaming music, on the phone, or watching You Tube videos on my laptop. I do have the TV Connector which is excellent but I only use it when I’m watching TV and my wife doesn’t want to hear the sound (e.g. violent movies). I don’t have any basis for comparison with other aids but on this forum there have been people who have switched from other brands to the Marvels with improved results for music streaming, etc.

Lefty, I also own the Marvel M90-R. I also own several high end headphones, including the Sony WH1000XM3. I’m a classical musician and I listen to a lot of live music, including what I hear from my own 7’ 5" concert grand piano. (If you go to garycoombs.com7, you can see my grand piano.) With my Marvels I have excellent bass and excellent natural sound.

I have an Android app called “Frequency Generator”. With this app I can generate pure tones at any frequency. I can clearly hear bass down to C0 (C zero) at 16.35 Hz. I can also clearly hear C8 4186.01 Hz. These notes are the lowest and highest notes on my grand piano.

I think some of the vagueness is because we are talking proprietary material. Even their FCC filings are vague. That combined with their tendency to want their hearing aids sound magical.

For me my Marvels really are magical. If I had any idea that today’s HA’s could do this for my hearing I would have jumped on them like a duck on a June Bug! And to think I had to be coerced to see an audiologist just a year ago!

Dear Sierra,

Thank you for the detailed explanation of the sound reduction feature. From your description, it may actually be the “fading problem” that some people refer to. To me, it sounds like it is something that can make me happy if I can learn to live with it. About Costco, unfortunately I am located in Turkey, and can’t use Costco. But the company that I am planing to buy here offered Phonak Marvel M70’s to me (312 and no telecoil) at $2000 for a pair.

My experience confirms that the streaming goes to my right ear HA (90 MRT) and then right HA transmits the left side stereo portion to the left HA, though I don’t know how. When I stream a lot of music the right HA becomes more discharged than the left (40% vs 60% for example). However, listening the classical music over the Internet is a grand experience—in stereo. My audi implemented frequency downshifting at 8kHz, but everything sounds great to my untrained ears.

I am trialing rechargeable marvel audeo M90 at present. I have moderate to profound hearing loss that is degenerative in nature. I’ve been wearing Unitron in the canal hearing aids for the past 6 years … they are relatively old technology now and I am needing to update. I am having issues with the Marvels doing crazy automatic things… like whilst waiting by myself in a cafe where there was music playing… at first the music was quieter (in the background)… then all of a sudden it was much louder like someone had turned up the volume… then it switched again… all while I was sitting there not talking to anyone. Additionally, Sounds like cutlery, screen doors and metal gates shutting are very loud but speech is not always amplified enough and when I have my back to my husband for example, I’m not hearing him at all. Furthermore, I play and teach piano and the aids were driving me nuts yesterday … I just left them in the auto setting as I had literally just got them from the audiologist. … the piano was loud then quiet then loud, then tinny then bright then mellow… you get the drift … just constantly kept shifting. So I am wondering if these are the right aids for me and what changes could I make to the settings. Also, the scratchy sound of hair around my ears … anyone else have this?! I’m so stressed as I have to make a decision my next Friday and I’m also pregnant so that’s probably not helping! Thanks in advance for any help you can give!

Dear Staceylwatt, I am sorry to hear that you are experiencing these problems. It must be very annoying. I am the person who originally started this treat. Before I bought my Phonak Marvels, I kept reading about such complaints in the phonak facebook group. Anyway, I finally decided to buy Phonak Marvel M70 (no trial periods in my country) and luckily I didn’t experience any such problems. I have moderate hearing loss, and for me Marvel M70’s sound is very smooth. Is it possible that in your M90 model AutoSense setting is more intrusive than it is on M70? If you can, perhaps you can give a try to M70’s. And, you are right, being pregnant probably is not helping. I was there too, a few years ago. Good luck.

I’m sorry to hear about your problems. Other folks have complained about the autosense program on the Marvels. I’ve had mine for about six weeks, and haven’t noticed any significant, intrusive changes from one moment to the next. It might be that your audi didn’t set something correctly.

Then too, you can ask to have some fixed programs set up, such as a music program. I don’t notice much difference between the music and not when I’m playing flute, handbells, or singing in the choir, but others apparently do. Things are slightly different with handbells with and without the music program. That’s because I play the high squeeky bells (B6–C7 and B7–C8). So the frequency lowering kicks in a tad when I’m doing the really high buggers. The music program fixes that. Well, it fixes that provided you ask your audi to drop the frequency lowering settings for that program.

As for the clattering dishes and clanging gates, what you’re hearing is some semblance of reality. Previously, those high-frequency sounds weren’t available to you. In time you get used to them, and as an added bonus find you get to hear birds and crickets chirping away once again.