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Tremelo effect with Oticon Synergy Sense

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Hi. I have had hearing aids for just 3 months now after holding off for probably 30 years since I knew I had hearing loss. I have a big dip at 4 kHz that I am told is a classic result of chronic exposure. I reckon it was long hours at high speed in my first car (a Renault 4) that did it. Anyway, I am getting on well with my NHS-provided Synergy Senses but have noticed what I would call a tremelo or beat effect when listening to music with pure frequencies e.g. a soprano or flute. I can reproduce it now by whistling particular notes in the 1500-3000 Hz range. I have tried the “music” setting but it makes no difference. And I still get it with just one aid switched on. My audiologist looked blank when I mentioned it so I thought I might try this forum. My underlying question is: Is this a common effect across many hearing aids or might I avoid it by changing? Thanks in anticipation.

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It has to do with noise reduction compression whatever it’s called. The aids think “oh this is a noise I’ll clamp that out”. Then it releases. Then it thinks “oh still ok lets do that again”. etc I’ve had that effect. Try the beeps of a microwave or coffee maker.
I’m surprised though that you hear the same thing with a music programme. Maybe the fitter left some noise control in the music programme.

You may want to ask your audiologist to turn off or lower the hearing aid “feedback manager.” The feedback manager often treats a steady high-pitched sound as feedback, and tries to get rid of it, but in so doing a tremolo or vibrato effect is heard. In my experience, a music program usually turns off most or all of the automatic features of a hearing aid, so I’m also surprised that you experience the tremolo effect with your music program.

As a musician, I can’t tolerate the tremolo effect, so I’ve had the feedback maganger turned off in all four of my hearing aid programs. Although I get a little feedback when I cup my hand very close to my ears, that’s a small price for me to pay to not have music distorted. Whether or not this could work for someone might depend on the amount of hearing loss one has and the amount of gain needed to address one’s hearing loss prescription.

Aha! Thanks for your replies. I have now noticed that it IS more pronounced on the general programme than the music one. On a steady frequency from a tone generator, after about 5s it changes from tremelo to a click and slight change of volume with a period of about 1s. Then when I change the frequency, the process starts all over again. Will indeed go back to the audiologist and get feedback control removed from the music programme. I AM glad I asked!

I shared all this with my audiologist and she removed the feedback control and stripped it all back to basics - only one programme now and delinked the volume control between the aids. I am trialling like this for a couple of months. They are certainly more prone to whistling which would not be a problem if it had solved the issue - but quite surprised that the tremelo effect is just the same…

I was in for a check up 2 weeks back and was told that Oticon is to be releasing an update within the next week or so. Hopefully they have fixed this issue with the feedback manager with it… I got one am anxiously waiting for the call back to try it out.

Glad you persisted with the audiologist! I had a good NHS fitting of Phonak Naidas several years ago and they continue to work well, but I also love music and had to endure the semitone warbling - indeed on sopranos and woodwind, with concert pipe-organ emoting like a Hammond!
New audiologist has fully turned off the feedback stopper, and activated a better-sounding Music option: but I have to tolerate whistles in conversation. With these Naidas, feedback stopping cannot be assigned to Speech only. Phonak are communicative with me, but so far not clear on whether their more recent instruments have fixed the matter.
Audiologist is now offering the latest thing… a pair of Signia Motion. No high-note discord, but instead an amplitude tremor in mid range, not to menton overshoot clicks! She is genuinely concerned, and checking with Signia (also helpful) to see if these might be artefacts of the fitting equipment. I’m going back next week to find out.
I gather there are four different kinds of feedback control according to manufacturer. Take your pick!
By the way, I always like to mention this: there’s great research going along at Leeds University (Dr Alinka Greaseley) into the assistive needs of musicians.

This may sound strange, but I found out that if my hearing aids have accidentally triggered the module, it can cause the tremolo effect that you mention. So it is best to switch it off and leave it off except when answering the phone.

Thanks for the further comments and suggestions.
I have been back to the audiologist again and she changed some things again. Apparently, they can’t install the Oticon update because IT has to update the system first - so now awaiting that, but I’d be amazed if they have fixed my issue as I haven’t found anyone else going on about it.
After latest adjustment, they feedback a lot more now but the tremelo is still the same. I can produce the effect by whistling to myself - when I hit certain notes (and they seem to move around) - it sounds like a pea whistle.
@Ellisonvoice: I had a look at Dr Alinka Greaseley’s work. Reminded me that my observations are insignificant compared with what many have to contend with!
@Gramps: I think that only operates when you select it so pretty sure its not that - but thanks for the thought.

Hello p. sabourin. Let’s believe these issues will in time be properly addressed at the design and IT level. I have no doubt it does help when folk like us comment here and elsewhere. I shall keep nagging NICE, for example, who are so blissfully bland about music in their advice to audiologists. Just five words!
I’m very fortunate in mine, as she took up the matter of the tremelo, and overshoot clicking, with someone very senior at Signia - actually sent my oscilloscope traces through! And she is herself very qualified. A bit of chat among the pros does no harm!
To Gramps, and to p.s. - on its own doesn’t wobble, but fades to low volume after seven seconds. So, still no good! Fortunate the old Phonaks soldier on. Newer stuff seems to be too clever by half.

The Oticon setup software has 2 algorithms for feedback. My audiologist only knew about one: the Feedback Analyzer. The other feedback algorithm is buried in Other Tools>Automatics. By default, it is set to Normal, and causes the tremolo effect. On my General program, I had him turn it from Normal to Low, and on the MyMusic program, I had him turn it off completely. Oticon doesn’t recommend that setting, since if you cup your ear with your hand, you will get feedback. But now I can play music and there is no tremolo. My audiologist didn’t even know about that setting.

@jkorchok said:

But now I can play music and there is no tremolo. My audiologist didn’t even know about that setting.

Yep. It’s really not the Audi’s fault, in that for 99% of her clients, having feeback control ON is a good thing for everyday situations. Mu audi had to call Signia to discuss my demand to turn off feedback control and compression in my pre-established Musician program. Even the Signia pro was taken aback at the suggestion. "Turn off wind block feature! We spent tens of thousands to develop that!’ Yeah, but I play music indoors where there is no wind, and this feature messes with how sound is processed. AND, feedback control needs to be turned OFF, not lowered. All of this sent shivers down the spine of the audis. Again, it’s understandable, in that audis are trained to fit aids for speech recognition. Musicians are an entirely different animal, and one that Audiologists rarely run into. Musicians’ needs run 180 degrees counter to what Audis are trained to do for enabling speech recognitiion in a variety of environments.

With my OPN S1, this is exactly what I did a few years back, turned off the feedback manager.

The tremolo effect is not caused by music or instrument in my case but by the voice of my little 6 years old girl.

The unfortunate thing is that I discovered lately that this remove the ability for the aids to use the built in features to remove more noise in a noisy environment and help with speech.

So I turned it on again lately and with the noise management turned to the maximum it is not that bad as before.

Been 5 years with my OPN S, hopefully when I switch to the Intent in a few weeks this will have been addressed a few generations later.

My audiologist was also taken aback a few years ago when I suggested to turn off feedback management after reading about it here.

Yeah it’s a known issue with too much reduction set, same with features(Speech Rescue) but you should have a separate program that you can switch to for noisy environments in any case.

@vincenthuard said:

when I switch to the Intent in a few weeks this will have been addressed a few generations later.

Please keep us posted on your trial, lots of people will be interested in these new “intent” models.

I will definitely!
I got 2 appointments this week with 2 different provider as I was not very satisfied with my first one. Hopefully they will already know exactly when the Intent comes out in Canada. I heard “April” so far.

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