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Phonak introduces Paradise, a new paradigm in hearing aid sound quality

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In reply to @glucas

@glucas said:

Lacks active noise cancellation?

LOL

I think he means that ’s only cancel noise picked up by the HA mics using their electronic circuitry whereas Apple Air Buds Pro and now other ear buds will also have active cancellation of sound waves that might go directly to your eardrum with an . I haven’t followed Phonak Paradise or earbud technology closely but I think a while back an Apple user on the forum suggested HA manufacturers in the noise cancellation wars were in danger of being scooped by the earbud folks, who, BTW, having a far bigger market income, might just mosey on over into HA territory and eventually crush more than a few HA OEM’s, especially with solutions for mild to moderate hearing loss, e.g., because HA fitters encourage an open fit but ain’t selling no “active cancellation.”

Probably don’t remember correctly but I have the perhaps incorrect recollection that Air Buds Pro have both noise cancellation for noise in the vicinity of the ear and for noise picked up by their external mics and processed by their internal audio circuitry - that would be two forms of noise cancellation if memory is correct.

Active cancellation is explained in the beginning of the following CNET article:

Best Noise-Canceling Earbuds for 2024

With loads of noise-canceling earbuds to choose from, here are CNET's top picks from the dozens of models we've tested.

The 2nd “noise cancellation” is apparently just an occlusive fit - with a “transparency” mode to let external sound thru if you want:

The AirPods’ noise cancellation, which is effective, also helps with external noise, and the combination of the seal of the tips and the active noise cancellation means they sound much better in noisier environments such as city streets. AirPods Pro review: These headphones still rock - CNET1

Interesting. But I am not convinced. How does it cancel sound waves if not by the circuitry?

I think the original statement is nonsense. It’s like claiming a new car has a turbo engine and all cars before it do not. All hearing aids have active noise reducing features. You may argue that buds do it without circuitry - I could then argue that twin mic directionality that uses sine wave subtraction is the very essence of noise cancellation - from the sides and back at least! And I was a witness to that 25 years ago!

I am just stirring up trouble. :slightly_smiling_face: Whether “active noise cancellation” is hype or not, I don’t know but one “budget” company, NuHeara is selling “hearing aids” with active noise cancellation.

IQbuds Max4

IQbuds² MAX is the only hearing bud with audiometric personalisation, speech in noise control, and active noise cancellation, delivering optimal fidelity and natural sound.

I found the ad when I just Binged “hearing aids active noise cancellation” - so maybe as with a lot of other stuff, it will be “our brand ABC has ACTIVE NOISE CANCELLATION but brands X, Y, and Z do not!”

Yes, lol, not being a snob but I think there is a danger of getting sucked into marketing hype. The sort of hype that makes you believe that 23" puncture resistant tyres will serve you well in all terrains compared to 40" tubeless.

I think “fit for purpose” is key here. Still, hearing aids will have a market in mild/moderate segment I guess.

In reply to @jim_lewis

I’ve only skimmed, but to me the crucial distinction that isn’t emphasized (I didn’t see it mentioned, but I only skimmed) is what the signal is that your trying to cancel noise from. If the signal is music being streamed, then cancelling the surrounding sound (everything but the music) is pretty feasible. If the signal is speech being processed through microphones all located on the hearing aid, separating out the speech from all the other noise is pretty challenging. My take is that it would take a lot more computing power than what hearing aids currently have available. It was interesting reading a review from more of a tech perspective. I think the big difference when comparing earbuds to hearing aids is what they’re designed to listen to. At least until fairly recently, earbuds are for music, and only recently are trying speech. (Bose Hearphones by the way only actively cancel noise for streamed sounds and rely on directional mics to reduce noise for speech) Hearing aids are designed for speech and only recently have emphasized streaming.

In reply to @MDB

@MDB said:

I’m guessing the motion sensor and tap feature only being available on rechargeables has something to do with voltage requirements. Lithium ion chemistry generates notable more voltage than zinc air. Perhaps more voltage is somehow better for powering motion sensors or it was just too much work designing ones with different voltage requirements.

Yes, this has been my understanding of why the motion sensors are limited to the rechargeable version. I was disappointed too, but I doubt it was a choice made to “push” the market towards rechargeable. Makes more sense to me that it is an engineering limit.

I’m not going to be that impressed until someone can break down for me what the new chip offers in terms of sound quality and noise reduction. What is this new noise cancellation actually DOING? All these other features are just gravy.

@Neville said:

I’m not going to be that impressed until someone can break down for me what the new chip offers in terms of sound quality and noise reduction. What is this new noise cancellation actually DOING?

I agree, and people writing reviews so far didn’t gave me such answers. So it will all boil down to my own comparison of properly fitted Marvels vs properly fitted Paradises when they come to me.

On the paper we definitely don’t see that difference from anything written.

If the 4 improvement (in the lab) is on TOP of the 3-6 dB beam forming improvement (in the lab) for a total of 7-10 dB SNR improvement (maybe 4-6 in real life?) that’s a reasonably big deal for the population of users who have only a mild to moderate .

[On the other hand, if the call quality on the other end is dramatically improved even in noise. . . If EVERYONE had phonak hearing aids you could just go to a noisy restaurant and sit on conference call. Maybe instead of getting M90s, you just get all of your friends one M30 and a good phone plan.]

In reply to @MDB

I think the best solutions for hearing in noise will be a combination of occlusion to block out sound from all directions, microphone directionality, either within the hearing devices or via “remote” mics elsewhere on the person or like a Roger Pen or Multi Mic and active noise cancellation (except it takes more battery). It seems like ’s and ear buds are converging on this sort of solution, just from different directions. Ear buds are gaining more microphones and directionality. HA’s with might want active noise cancellation if they want to stay competitive for mild to moderate hearing loss, especially without a more occlusive fit, which earbuds are working on.

I always liked the oxymoron: “What happens when an Irresistible Force meets an Immovable Object?” The answer (back in the 50’s) was: “An Inconceivable Concussion.” So it will be interesting to see what happens when earbuds and HA’s begin to even more seriously overlap in territory than they already are.

In the before-time I traveled a lot and always wore NC headphones on flights. But when I got M90s with powerdomes I gave up the headphones.

Dear Phonak, all this tech is cool but worthless if you’re not going to bring it to Naida M UP model. In fact, I am disappointed that you’ve not brought the Marvel tech to Naida M UP. There are millions of people out there who benefit from a UP hearing aid and we’re all frustrated for being left behind.

Looking forward to hearing how phone calls are for the person on the other end of the line. And, how streaming is in an open area/field. For me on Marvel, open fields or big open areas outside I more than occasionally lose streaming to the other ear, and I routinely get complaints about myself being hard to hear on the other end of the line while on a phone call. Let’s see if they did anything here. I still think I’ll probably hold out until what comes after Phonak Paradise.

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