To be fair to all in Canada, Oticon, Sonova/Phonak, Starkey and Siemens all have interests in dispensing clinics. Some are not owned by the manufacturers but are funded/financed by them. Some clinics need to sell a certain quantity of units to qualify for benefits or price discounts. I believe it is very difficult to find a fully independant supplier in all of Canada that is not somehow biased towards one supplier or another. I know there are still some great unbiased private independant suppliers out there but I think this is an endangered animal in the longterm.
On the otherside do many of us complain that auto manufacturers generally do not offer all products available on the market? We go to Ford to buy a Ford, Toyota to buy a Toyota etc.
I don’t believe that consumers can make the same educated decision on a hearing aid as with a car. Understanding types of loss, best product for their loss, the complexity of the hearing aids and their features etc., and the industry jargon is just over whelming.
It may get to the point where they understand enough to make a decision on make, features etc. but that maybe the Ipod generation.
I am against manufacturers having a financial interest or share in audiology practices, but on the flip side, I feel the same way about cars as other people do about hearing aids. It’s all greek to me no matter how hard i try to wade through all the bull and get to the point of what i NEED.
I’m completely independent and have learnt the hard way to limit the amount of manufacturers I use… purely for logistical reasons… I justify this simply knowing that I’m not running around like a headless chook experimenting on my clients… I know some manufacturers inside out and have a passing interest on others (if someone is adamant they want a particular brand it’s easy for me to arrange or suggest another clinic)… As long as a few brands fill all needs why bother with too many?.. Furthermore, I don’t think (unfortunately) there’s a market for someone who dispenses all brands… They’d go broke as they couldn’t compete pricewise with the costcos and Internet sellers
I agree completely! I use a handful of manufacturers that I think serve every patient’s needs. If a professional tries to offer ALL manufacturers, you can be sure that they can’t possibly be proficient in fitting all of them. Especially considering they come out with new technology every 3 to 6 months.
Having said that, I do try my best to keep my ear to the ground about manufacturers that I do not currently fit, so that if they develop something I deem useful for my patients, I can add it to what I currently offer.
Sonova is being even more aggressive in the USA. Phonak, Unitron, Lyric, cochlear plus multiple purchase of retail offices. Also Widex just announced yesterday that they are taking over their US distribution from the company that has handled it for decades; translation: in addition to selling their hearing aids wholesale to Audis, Dispensers and they will now have their own stores.
I don’t believe that consumers can make the same educated decision on a hearing aid as with a car. Understanding types of loss, best product for their loss, the complexity of the hearing aids and their features etc., and the industry jargon is just over whelming.
It may get to the point where they understand enough to make a decision on make, features etc. but that maybe the Ipod generation.
I never said it was easy to shop for a hearing aid, as Dr. Amy has mentioned below many people feel the same way about the automobile market.
It is the job of the hearing professional to explain things in a way the customer can understand. The customer HAS to trust the person they are dealing with. The other option is to perform research (of course this often results in more questions than answers), or to rely on word-of-mouth from trusted sources.
I can tell you that my mother walking into an electronics store to buy a TV, computer, or other electronic device would feel just as lost and have to rely on the salespersons expertise.
Sounds like this thread about people “Feeling Like Your Being Ripped Off” draws alot of very defensive attention from audi’s within the hearing aid industry. I understand it is hard to be impartial when you got a horse in the race.
Walter, one man’s “defensive attention” is another’s attempt to be understood.
The two way dialogue in this area should be helpful. Besides, those guilty of ripping off customers are not visiting sites like this because they’re too busy lining up the next victim.
William Demant has just recently purchased Gordon Stowe and Associates , assets of Hearusa Sennheiser corporation, and through their Audiometer manufacturer Interacoustics, they have purchased Radio Ear Corp, the American company that is the only supplier of Bone Conductors to the Audiometer industry.
Lots of Vertical Integration going on here, soon there will not be any competition on the equipment side, prices are sure to rise.
After reading some of the postings, I had to sign up and share my experience with this industry from a Canadian market perspective.
In recent years manufacturers in Canada have been purchasing retail offices, and positions within some of the larger chain groups plus offering discounts (or “Points”) to volume dealers. This is obviously a very gray area and not a beneficial setup for the end user as it limits the choices being offered to the patient, even if the dispenser/audiologist is only an employee, there is obviously going to be pressure to recommend certain brands only.
To add to this for the general public knowledge, 2 companies have a large percentage of the market through their ownership of hearing aid companies and equipment suppliers: William Demant Holdings owns 3 hearing aid companies (Oticon, Bernafon, Phonic Ear) Equipment suppliers Interacoustics,and Grason Stadler. GN Resound Group owns hearing aid manufacturers Beltone, Resound and Interton and equipment supplier Otometrics.
Forgot William Demant also owns Maico Diagnostics and Tremetrics, Otometrics has purchased several companies (Danplex, ICS Medical and a couple of German companies) which they have blended into their organization.
Sept 23 2010 Update
William Demant now owns Grason Stadler as of a few months ago, so the last of Clinical Audiometers made in the USA is now only a distribution company as all assembly is in Denmark and the components manufactured in the far East. I heard that Demant/Oticon have purchased Sonic Innovations, so the pool is getting shallower for choice, prices will only go up from here. No wonder the economies of North America are such a state with the selling off of good high tech companies to off shore interests.
William Demant has just recently purchased Gordon Stowe and Associates , assets of Hearusa Sennheiser corporation, and through their Audiometer manufacturer Interacoustics, they have purchased Radio Ear Corp, the American company that is the only supplier of Bone Conductors to the Audiometer industry.
Lots of Vertical Integration going on here, soon there will not be any competition on the equipment side, prices are sure to rise.
Just one of the many reason why i dont think it’s a good idea for manufacturers to be buying offices in the field. It limits options for audis and patients. No matter what a professional tells you, NO manufacturer is the best at EVERY aspect of hearing aids. Thats why patients need options to choose from and professionals need options from which to fit.
dr. amy
But this way, the hearing aid manufacturers, have access to higher levels of sales with less competition and a better return on investment. It is a great business model if you are a hearing aid manufacturer. Maybe not best for the consumer though.
But this way, the hearing aid manufacturers, have access to higher levels of sales with less competition and a better return on investment. It is a great business model if you are a hearing aid manufacturer. Maybe not best for the consumer though.
MAYBE not best for the consumer?? It’s a terrible business model for everyone except the manufacturers.
One of my duties is to advocate for patients, and vertical integration only suits the manufacturers interests. Their interests are protected enough as it is…
I agree - more often then naught the latest and greatest have design issues that many times are never resolved till several months after initial launch. I’d stay with a mid-range, popular, tried and true hearing aid
In the UK it is illegal to advertise a price if a customer cannot actually buy the product at the advertised price. This, sadly in some cases, seems to have made a resurgence recently with websites advertising hugely competitive prices. Worringly, when the customer arrives they are not offered the product, but when investigated, it was perfectly suitable for the hearing loss. New regulatory powers are on their way in the UK, but slowly. Remember, you do not have to buy there and then. You can go away and think about it, so do not be pressured into buying something different and more expensive. As they always say, “Get a second opinion”.
Seems to be a lot of bait and switch going on. Unless a client goes to several dispensers (which the majority won’t), they have no idea what is suitable for them, they are just looking at the price point unfortunately.
But this way, the hearing aid manufacturers, have access to higher levels of sales with less competition and a better return on investment. It is a great business model if you are a hearing aid manufacturer. Maybe not best for the consumer though.
Well, for your information, the GN group will have a 2011 projected gross income of USD500millions which includes their entire worldwide businesses and investment returns.
Is it big?..no.
Are they profitable? For four years on the row, they were not.
In fact, there is not a single hearing aid manufacturer really financially healthy. If they try to merge together, this is simple in order to survive.
Now, let’s compare with an hearing aid dispenser located in the Boston area (I will not name it). This is an independant clinic with Audiology services
Gross income for 2010: USD8millions
Net Profit: $435,000
Conclusion, who is producing the most cashflow? The distributor.
Well, for your information, the GN group will have a 2011 projected gross income of USD500millions which includes their entire worldwide businesses and investment returns.
Is it big?..no.
Are they profitable? For four years on the row, they were not.
In fact, there is not a single hearing aid manufacturer really financially healthy. If they try to merge together, this is simple in order to survive.
Now, let’s compare with an hearing aid dispenser located in the Boston area (I will not name it). This is an independant clinic with Audiology services
Gross income for 2010: USD8millions
Net Profit: $435,000
Conclusion, who is producing the most cashflow? The distributor.
I’m sorry, that’s utter nonsense. And you used Resound as your example as they have been on their knees for a while.
Look at Oticon for example:
UPDATE 2-William Demant profits rise, sees stronger 2011
COPENHAGEN, March 9 (Reuters) - Danish hearing aid maker William Demant (WDH.CO) posted a rise in 2010 profit in line with forecasts, driven by higher revenues, and said on Wednesday it expected “considerable” growth in 2011 sales and earnings.
The company said its new high-end product, the Oticon Agil, has become the world’s best-selling hearing aid in its category and helped boost its average prices by more than 5 percent.
Earnings before interest and tax (EBIT) rose 24 percent to 1.43 billion Danish crowns ($266 million), compared with analysts’ average forecast of 1.42 billion in a Reuters poll. [ID:nLDE7231LP]
“Improvement of profitability during 2010 was driven by strong sales figures and improved product mix,” William Demant Holding A/S said in a statement. “In 2011, the Group foresees considerable growth in revenues and earnings.”
Excluding the acquisition of U.S. firm Otix Global and associated one-off costs, William Demant said it expected a continuous rise in profit margin from 2010 and a “handsome double-digit rate of growth in operating profits (EBIT)”.
William Demant shares initially rose more than 2 percent, but erased gains and fell 2.2 percent by 0904 GMT on a modestly firming Copenhagen bourse .OMXC20.
Analysts said the absence of a firm commitment to buy back shares this year – the company said only that it might – was a disappointment and had knocked the share price.
“I had a clear expectation that they would announce a share buyback of 800-900 million crowns because they have a strong cash flow and debt that would allow them to return money to shareholders,” said Sydbank analyst Morten Imsgard.
Revenues grew 21 percent in 2010 to 6.89 billion crowns, above an average estimate of 6.78 billion in the Reuters poll.
“The Group generated growth rates that substantially exceed market growth rates and captured market shares in all major geographical markets,” William Demant said.
Chief Executive Niels Jacobsen said that performance meant that William Demant recaptured the position “as the fastest growing player in the hearing aid industry” in 2010.
Its competitors include Swiss hearing aid maker Sonova (SOON.VX), Germany’s Siemens (SIEGn.DE) and compatriot GN Store Nord (GN.CO). ($1 = 5.371 Danish crowns) (Additional reporting by Teis Jensen and Jakob Vesterager; Reporting by John Acher; Editing by Dan Lalor and Will Waterman)
Not so sure if the idea of hearing aid manufacturers having offices in the field is such a bad idea. Hear me out…
The only issues as I see them, in this type of business model, are (a) sufficient coverage geographically, and (b) sufficient competition to keep costs down and service up.
We are seeing this now with cellular phone suppliers and two way radio system providers doing just this.
FURTHER TO THIS, I find myself in a quandary and here is my story, which I will post in a seperate thread if necessary, so it stands out as a warning to potential customers. CAVEAT EMPTOR!
My wife is deaf in one ear and impaired in the other. She relies on a system hearing aid setup to determine where sounds are coming from and to converse in a group, which she must do for both business and for personal reasons (such as maintaining a level of self assuredness in family and/or friend gatherings). We understand that there are only TWO brands of CROS systems presently on the market; namely Unitron and Phonak.
The audiologist recommended the Unitrons and we bought and paid for them about a year ago. They have spent much time in the ‘shop’ and to make a long story short, Unitron ultimately replaced them with a brand new set (as we were led to believe). You would think that after almost a year of troubles Unitron would have checked to ensure the units were working before letting them leave their plant. NOPE! You would have thought that the dispenser and audiologist would have checked the units out with a ‘standard’ program to ensure they were ready, working and only in need of minor tweaking when we took a half day off to (yet again) pay a visit to this dispenser/audiologist that is located near Markham/Stoufville, Ontario. NOPE. You would think that we would be somewhat ticked off arriving to find the system DEAD and the audiologist UNABLE TO PROGRAM even the working side. You’d be right. We said that we were unhappy and asked for a different make. We were told that because of all the trouble we could switch to the Phonak Audeo V system at no cost to us (after all, dispensers are extremely well paid in Ontario for their services. Sic. They are grossly overpaid.). We agreed, having taken the time to research on this forum primarily and determining that this was EXACTLY the system we wanted and which would do the job.
Strangely, the audiologist insisted on doing another hearing test. The Phonaks were ordered in and we again took time off for the 10th. time or so to come and get the “fitted”. Well, the “fitting” on Phonak Audeo V is no big deal if you have a clue as to what you are doing. The unit is micro sized and has a wire that places a wee speaker/microphone in your ear. The CROS transmitter side has a microphone only supposedly and requires little or no adjustment whatsoever as I understand it. The whole job should have taken about 20 minutes I am told. Well, guess what. They had no clue as to how to properly program the Phonak system either at this place near Markham/Stoufville in Ontario. We finally insisted on dealing with the branch manager and having the Phonak rep there. And so it came to pass. And we are about as tickled as tickled can be with the equipment, after taking about 16 half days off in visits to the dispenser/dealer with all of this nonsense. Asides from eating batteries, which we expected, the Phonaks are miraculous pieces of engineering and my wife cannot imagine a better system, bar none.
Our issue is now with the dispenser/dealer. They claim that Unitron, despite the issues we had and despite the hearing aids sold to us (and paid for in full) being LEMONS and despite all of our wasted time… Unitron was chargin a restocking fee of 25%!!!
The original quote of “We will change your hearing aids for the Phonaks at no cost to you” became… “This is going to cost you about $400 plus taxes”. That we were prepared to live with and offered to pay. I had my credit card out. Our invoice was not ready. “Next visit” we were told (when we would come in to pick up the units). At the next visit, when we came in to pick up the Phonaks, we were told “we are going to have to charge you $500+” and upon asking to speak to the owner we were told the owner had several locations and was not available. We left. AGAIN, no invoice was ready nor presented to us although we did have a business card with the original quote on it. We had to return yet again to have the units programmed; this time with the Phonak rep. present. And again, when we went to leave, there was nobody at the counter to speak to us nor take our payment (I was, at that time, willing to pay $500 to keep the peace and maintain future relations. Still no invoice presented though.) Well, imagine our shock, when a few weeks later we received a statement in the mail announcing that we owed $1200 (!!!) along with a credit note for the original Unitron purchase but STILL… no invoice for the Phonaks! I finally had to call and insist on them sending me a copy of the invoice, which the eventually found and faxed to me. The difference between the two invoices was indeed $1200, but we were not going to stand still for one minute after being told that it would cost us ZERO. I asked for the owner again and was told she was out of town until ‘next Tuesday’ and would call me on her return. All of this conversation is recorded “for quality control purposes”. I asked for the manager who happened to be the gal that looked after us on our final visit along with the Phonak rep. She did not understand why the bill was so high but immediately said that she could reduce the bill by some $650 give or take. I should have paid the $550 and shut up… but I reminded her that the original quote on the difference, due to all of our aggravation, was ZERO. She said she would have the owner call us and that was the end of the conversation.
Well, the owner did call us back, a week later than expected, TODAY and left a message stating quite succinctly that the balance was $1200 and she was going to do nothing about it.
At this point I am torn between just letting them take us to small claims court and let a JP decide what’s fair, based on the evidence, or talking with the owner to come to some sort of amicable arrangement in order to give the wife an avenue of approach for any future problems that may arise with the product. Suggestions would be appreciated.
If the thing were to go to court I would subpoena all of the staff involved in the billing process as well as the staff that were involved in the original deal… as witness to the pricing mentioned. I also have some other evidence of the earlier pricing quotes and of our inability to pay as they refused to take payment due to lack of having paperwork.
Suggestions?
We do not wish to be the customers from H–L but then again do not want to be stepped on.
Problem in Ontario is that they are just getting paid too much money by the government and customers - they have no fear of ridicule or loss of business.
Wales, UK