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Frequency shifting - possible to get used to?

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I got new hearing aids yesterday, Phonak Audeo M90-RT and we are trying frequency shifting to give me access to more high frequency sounds (I don’t have any useable hearing from approx. 5 kHz and dead spots). Already at the audiologist I noticed how some (but not all) s-sounds give rise to a hissing sound (at least I think I perceive it as hissing rather than lisping). For example, [z] is fine and also some combinations of s and other sounds. I assume this is an artefact of the ? The audiologist tried to fix the hissing, but with limited success. The audiologist and I will of course keep working on this, but my question is whether there’s any chance of my brain adapting to the frequency lowering over time or if this simply is something that either works or not for people? I still cannot hear f or th, which I had hoped the frequency shifting would allow me to do…

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Yes, one does adjust some to frequency shifting, but also remember it’s not just on or off. There are various settings. I think a good goal to aim for is to be able to differentiate between s and sh sounds. There’s actually a s-sh confusion test that one can try out.
I can provide links to an overwhelming amount of information on . There’s actually a 5 hr “Master Class on Frequency Lowering” available on Audiology Online.
However, in short. 1) Yes, there is some brain adjustment 2) There are adjustments to the settings and it often takes some tweaking.

@Tea: What MBD said … Also, when you’re reading on the Forum, bear in mind that different makers employ different technologies to effect in their machines.

I just learned this week that my Oticon More devices accomplish frequency lowering in a different way than Phonak aids, so what can be said about Oticon may not hold true for Phonaks or any other makers. (Frequency lowering is not causing any issues for me when I play my guitar - other musicians on the Forum who wear different makes of devices have had different experiences.)

This is an instance where a good working relationship with a caring audiologist who’s well-versed with your make of aids is helpful. I would encourage you to be persistent, and wear your hearing instruments for as many hours a day as you can bear to.

Good luck!

In reply to @MDB

I’ll add that most hearing aid fitters are not enthusiastic about . From what I’ve seen there are a couple of tendencies: 1) Try default settings. If patient doesn’t like it. Turn it off and say frequency lowering doesn’t work for most patients. 2) Set weaker settings than default with hope of no complaints and call it good with no verification that it’s doing any good.
I did find interesting a statement in the Master Class I referenced above. For sure frequency lowering can make speech understanding worse if adjusted improperly. It may be able to improve it. Frequency lowering is definitely not for everybody, but other than a cochlear implant, it’s the only way some of us are ever going to “hear” higher frequencies.

No help but a data point for you.

2018 I got Phonak Audeo-B (I think) rig. Audiologist set up what I think she called “sound recover” which I believe is the Phonak terminology for .

It drove me nuts! “S” sounds came out as “sh” sounds - the word seven (as in 7) sounded like “sheven” and my wife’s voice (the only person I really wish to hear) was so distorted her words were unintelligible.

Audi tried to mitigate it but could not. Wound up turning that feature off.

I’ll never know whether or not my brain would eventually have accommodated but the sound was unpleasant.

I agree with SpudGunner - work with the Audi to get it as close to right as possible. And MDB is spot-on that it can make speech understanding worse if not properly set. Imagine a 5 hour class to explain how to implement one particular feature.

In reply to @MDB

Thank you. I had done some reading before the visit to the audiologist, so was tried on my initiative. Right now Soundrecover is set slightly stronger than default and I knew already at the audiologists office that it wasn’t perfect, but it’s hard to tell when you have new hearing aids which aspects need adjusting and which you will adjust to.

My main concern is speech understanding, in particular speech in noise and this is where I’m hoping that frequency lowering could help (given the importance of high-frequency phonemes for understanding speech in challenging listening environments). Considering that I with all likelyhood have dead spots from maybe 5 kHz (I don’t hear 6 kHz and 8 kHz as pure tones, just as a buzzing sound) frequency lowering is the only way for me to access high frequency sounds. Also, my ski-slope is slowly moving to the left (10 years ago I had normal hearing at 2 KHz) so I assume it would be good to get used to frequency lowering now, since a higher compression ratio is likely to be necessary for me in the future.

Edited

In reply to @BoCat

Thank you. Phonak Audeo M90 use Soundrecover 2 and there’s a suprising amount of stuff you can read about this (I work at a university, so I also have access to academic journals). The sound isn’t that unpleasant for me, it’s just weird to have this little bit of hissing sound with some s-sounds (but I also have much better hearing than you to begin with, so probably a less challenging case). Right now I’m trying to figure out which phonemes cause problems for me, it’s not all s-sounds, it’s “s” in combination with some other sounds. Main experimental strategy so far: Talking to myself in both Swedish and English (the consonant sounds in the two languages are a bit different - the vowel sounds differ even more, but that’s not a problem given that my low frequency hearing is fine).

Looking at your IMHO technology is right for you. How stable is your hearing loss? Is it getting worse? You are also at a point that speech understanding can really go down if you don’t keep your brain stimulated with the sounds of speech.

I waited too long to wear hearing aids, my high-frequencies had pretty much gone away before getting serious about hearing aids. Then when aids were worn it was difficult to relearn the sounds of speech.

Frequency lowering technology is like this. It sends new sounds to your brain that you may not have heard in a long time. These sounds will be very odd until you acclimate. For me it took a couple months to learn these new sounds but in the end my speech understanding was much better. So, the best thing to do is never lose these sounds, frequency lowering technology can do this.

The S and SH sound is key to tuning frequency lowering. By adjusting frequency lowering aggressively until the S sound starts sounding like SH is the point to just back it off a little. Push yourself to learn.

There will be many new sounds around the house, in the car and outside that you have not been hearing. These new sounds are what kept me going to relearn speech. Pretty exciting really.

Good luck

“Weird” is much better than “unpleasant”!

I think the brain is marvelously adaptable, so if the weird sound is tolerable it might be worth seeing if you can adapt to it.

Just saw Rick’s post. Excellent advice!

In reply to @Raudrive

I’ve been doing my homework on frequency shifting and I think this is the way to go for me and your post reassured this further - if i can get used to it. I’m now at a stage where I start seeing changes in my word recognition scores, and in terms of amplification there’s nothing that can be done to my high frequencies. An issue might be that I’ve never heard some high frequency sounds. With all likelihood I’ve had high frequency hearing loss since I was a child, but it wasn’t diagnosed until my early 30s, when my hearing started to decline further and I started to really struggle with speech in noise. My first hearing test in 2012 showed normal hearing at 2 kHz (R: 10 , L: 20 dB) and 6 & 8 KHz at about 90/100 dB. Since then my hearing at 2 kHz has worsened to 50/70 dB, lower frequencies have been stable, so far. Thus, it seems like my hearing loss is progressing relatively slowly, but I’m only in my early 40s and have a very demanding job hearing-wise (I’m a university professor), so I’m super motivated to make this work.

In reply to @SpudGunner

Thank you. I’ve done a fair bit of reading, so well aware of that different algorithms are used. I’ve had hearing aids for almost ten years, so even though is new to me, hearing aids are not.

@MDB it’s interesting you mention that many fitters aren’t enthusiastic about technology. Maybe I have a fitter in the minority, but he was quite upbeat about the feature and how it could help my loss, especially with speech. It sounded good, he was the fitter, and I knew nothing about what to ask for other than can you make me hear my daughter better. I think I was in the group where I found my own (mal)adapted techniques to make up for noise and daily activities. My word score was high, so I guess I had room to deal with it outside of certain situations.

A few days after my first fitting I went to visit my daughter. Suddenly no missed words and a clarity that made her voice seem normal, not weird. Even her boyfriend sounded clearer to me, although I don’t remember having much trouble with his voice in the past.

I have had two additional visits for small changes ( one of the worst was the crackling of opening a bag similar to potato chips or crumpling paper). He fixed it in the spot with no issues since. Overall the tweaks have things pretty well dialed in for me so I have no complaints.

I don’t know what other settings he did in addition to the frequency lowering to get my hearing improved. I guess it’s a technique that works better for some than others. I’m also not a musician so I have no idea how those changes would throw me off. I think this all comes back to what I read here so often. A good fitter is key to getting the most out of your . That’s not to say there isn’t an adjustment you go through to adapt to what the aids are giving you, but it’s been worth it for me.

I suppose I could ask him to turn that feature off and see what difference it really makes, but for now I’m of the school if it works don’t mess with it.

In reply to @MDB

@MDB said:

I’ll add that most hearing aid fitters are not enthusiastic about frequency lowering. From what I’ve seen there are a couple of tendencies: 1) Try default settings. If patient doesn’t like it. Turn it off and say frequency lowering doesn’t work for most patients. 2) Set weaker settings than default with hope of no complaints and call it good with no verification that it’s doing any good.

Your comment (unfortunately) matches my experience at my local Costco. A couple years ago, I asked for extremely aggressive lowering on my KS-7’s with no lowering in program #2 in case this feature caused problems. But when I switch between programs, I cannot tell the difference.

In a couple weeks, I expect to get KS-10’s, which I hope will work better. My problem is that often speech sounds distorted. Meetings via Zoom with closed captioning really help. BZ (Before Zoom), I struggled at meetings.

Different hearing aid brands have different technology. Some brands can have frequency lowering in one program and not in another program while other hearing aid brands have to have the same settings of frequency lowering in all programs. Hope that makes since.

I am not familiar with the KS7 hearing aids, Rexton I think. Not sure if they have frequency lowering technology.

The KS10 aids have arguably the best frequency lowering technology out at this time.

Can verify that KS7 had . Very similar to Phonak’s Sound Recover (not SR2)
Default settings were very gentle. Over time I made adjustments that made it quite useful. Not trying to be negative, but stating experience with at least 3 audiologists and 1 hearing aid specialist.
I’m sure there are fitters out there that do a good job. To me the 5 hr class Audiology online offers demonstrates a lack of understanding is out there.

I’m having a lot of trouble getting that course to play for me … I live in the country and don’t have super internet, but I’ve taken at least 8 audiology online courses with no problems.

Any suggestions about how I can improve this?

I don’t know. Didn’t have any issues but have decent internet. I don’t see any options for lower resolution. Maybe wait awhile after opening to hit play? It’s set up in like 5 sections I think so one plays one section at a time. Good luck.

Aye Jim, here in the UK, the easiest way to increase internet speed for long lines, is to fit an ADSL Filter Plate… Gives you about another 1 1/2mb, years ago, I was right into internet speed, stayed in a tiny village on the Black Isle, everyone in the village was getting about 1mb, I was getting around 10mb :upside_down_face: I had a small hack in my old Thomson Router to fool the exchange… Nowadays I get around 72mb download and 18mb upload as I am only 100 yards from the street cabinet, in another tiny village out in the country. Cheers Kev :wink:

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