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Close to despair after months of audiologists (note: PLURAL!) attempting recovery of music and speech

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@Skip said:

I dunno how to post my audiogram with my profile, though all of them since mid 2021 are featured early on, and I’ll have another ENT version early next month.

OK - for the greater good of the community, I THINK this is how to get one’s personal added to their avatar so it shows up every time you post on a thread:

  1. Click on “FORUM” in top menu bar at Forum’s home page
  2. Click on “My Hearing Tests” in the pull-down menu
  3. Click on “Add Hearing Test” in the blue button below
  4. Now manually ADD the frequency results from your own unique audiogram, LEFT ear, then RIGHT ear.
  5. Be sure to click “Save My Audiogram” at the bottom and voila! It should appear by your avatar for all future postings.

Hope I got this right, but this way, we all see a standardized view of the audiograms, which make them MUCH easier to interpret.

In reply to @Skip

@Skip said:

I’m sure there’s a way to quote but have not yet deciphered it, so forgive me for asking you to refer to the post above,

Quickie: To reply to a “quote” in any post (your own or someone else’s), just highlight the appropriate text in that post using your mouse. Once you have the phrase, sentence or entire paragraph highlighted, hit “<–Reply”. This opens a window with the quote already in it, to which you can now add your reply.

In reply to @Skip

@Skip said:

appointments with all 3 tomorrow; I’m hopeful, but a long way from confident.

OK. Now, without your posted, I’m not sure which aid should/could/would deliver the best performance for your short list of key metrics. I’m going to cast a vote for PHONAK, and again, just a wild thought, but ask if you could try the P90? This is the top-of-the-line model, and granted it may be for cinderblock ears like mine, but I DO think the dedicated Music program I’ve got in my lineup makes it WAY better to listen to music. As mentioned in earlier post, I can sing pitch perfect when in the Music program. I can hear that nuance of pitch and NAIL it. Why? Dunno! Is it my Music program? Some ear/brain connection? I just know it works super well with the Phonak Lumity Life P90 speaker.

I admire your persistence with chasing down the perfect solution - even as you are eating up hours with visits to 3 different fitters working with 3 different aid models. WOW. That is what I dream about but don’t have the energy to pursue. Yes, I’d love to compare Widex with Oticon with Phonak, but as it is, it took a good 5 or more visits to my audi to get the Lumity Life aids doing what I wanted them to do.

I don’t think your metrics are beyond what a fitter should deliver!!! Speech clarity should already be there to nail your wife’s voice. At least with the P90 speaker. Music program may take more playing around with, boosting frequencies here, dampening them there. Music alone makes me wish I was a DIYer and just bought the NOAHlink software to make endless refinements in my own sweet time. Think about that option, too!

Quickie update:

The Beltone audiologist called me yesterday, admitting failure (he’s a relatively new rep, previously independent for 25 years). He recommended another office about an hour away from where I live (about triple travel time compared to his and the other two surviving competitors’ offices). I’d thought, from our conversation, that he and she had had a conversation about my case, but her call to confirm my electronic appointment set yesterday revealed that she had no clue about me or the challenges.

So, we’re starting from scratch. But she apparently is an advocate of the receiver I’d thought I’d had (with a microphone AND speaker), which would be a hardware change for me; my current guy had used it on one client who hated it, so never tried it again. The factory rep who worked with me for a few joint appointments apparently wasn’t a fan, either, or he’d have fitted my aids with them. We’ll see where we go with our new one.

Recordkeeping and detailed logs continue for the Phonak and Liberty providers; I have (still) appointments with both later today. The P is coming very close for speech, and the L less so and boomy.

It’s my fervent hope that the Beltones can be made to work for me, and I can quit all this running around, as well as regain the 8 grand I have still-in-refund/trial period with the others, but we’re starting from scratch with the new office, including a new ; I’m taking all the ones I’ve accumulated over the last almost-2 years to illustrate the disparity from one to the other (see the top of this thread for the many audiograms in that pile, but not the current about-to-happen gram)…

Good morning…

I just thought you might like to know the initial outcomes of a very thorough exam and consultation with a technically astute referral to a different Beltone office (previous and another I’ve forgotten experience prior to my appointment with the MBA-HAS specialist) yesterday:

Of all the done in the last 3 months, the Sam’s (the first of the current-era bunch) is nearly the same as Lauren Schnittger’s yesterday; the others are notably less-loss in general but also generally follow the same pattern at differing loss levels. Why there should be such variance, including “better” loss profiles on the others is mysterious to me. But…

Without regurgitating the blow-by-blow current log, and without yet experiencing music, all speech related possible settings (All-Around, Ultra Focus, Restaurant, and trying all the subsettings) in the app have not provided clarity, even with no-feedback earmolds, whether in silent, quiet or restaurant or home settings.

I will continue to hack away at the two other providers, who are getting close. But I’m continuing to wear the Imagine 17s for several days continuously to see if my brain magically translates my voice reception, for now…

I continue to pray that there is a Beltone solution, but I’m discouraged…

L8R

Skip

@Skip said:

Why there should be such variance, including “better” loss profiles on the others is mysterious to me

Well you don’t have the same, our hearing changes all the time it’s never exactly the same every day.

@Skip said:

I will continue to hack away at the two other providers, who are getting close. But I’m continuing to wear the Imagine 17s for several days continuously to see if my brain magically translates my voice reception, for now…

It seems to me that it’s not the “providers” and nor is it the Beltone 17’s (these are exactly the same as ReSound Ones, which have a pretty good reputation)
this is a “brain” thing, we hear with our brain (just ask Oticon or the Oticonians) ears are just the pathway, there’s no magic unfortunately, this I suspect will get better for you over time, how much time tho? it’s different for a lot of people, some weeks others months.

@tenkan said:

It seems to me that it’s not the “providers” and nor is it the Beltone 17’s (these are exactly the same as ReSound Ones, which have a pretty good reputation)
this is a “brain” thing, we hear with our brain (just ask Oticon or the Oticonians) ears are just the pathway, there’s no magic unfortunately, this I suspect will get better for you over time, how much time tho? it’s different for a lot of people, some weeks others months.

This has been going on, now, for 16 months post-recovery from my ear infection. Any brain issues should have been long ago resolved (at least in my uneducated but linearly logical brain) in the Beltones.

Further, the remaining two candidates have made great strides, albeit with some stumbles along the way, in the 3 months they’ve had my ears in their scopes. And for the most part, due to my need to evaluate (to be fair to the provider, AND to provide meaningful input to the audiologist/tweaker in the weekly reviews/adjustments) more than one per week, the times of insertion of each have been a day, or at most two, each, before moving on. Those two have had no such need for lengthy acclimatization.

So, I’m not convinced. I AM, however, annoyed that the hour-long trip to the technically more-experienced office of Beltone has my speech clarity of those aids now back to an almost-useless level. As both of the remaining candidates for usurping Beltone have trial expirations either in a couple of weeks or a matter of several days, I’m a bit anxious about not using them.

But I’m wearing the exclusively all day at home and through some restaurant and private dinners, and, if one’s not available for the two experts who will also be attending my dinner tonight with friends, through Sunday when I’ll be able to evaluate the BT reaction to a real (vs recording) piano, the prominent cause of distortion in music.

As I’m not overdriven by the BTone’s level, I presume my acuity perception/gram is reasonably accurate. What still baffles me is why the ones after the Sam’s and before the most recent, and virtually identical, Beltone show mild to impressively better acuity. I could see some issue making my hearing poorer on a given time, but better??

Sigh…

In reply to @1Bluejay

@1Bluejay said:

I’m going to cast a vote for PHONAK, and again, just a wild thought, but ask if you could try the P90? This is the top-of-the-line model, and granted it may be for cinderblock ears like mine, but I DO think the dedicated Music program I’ve got in my lineup makes it WAY better to listen to music.

That aid is a 2-years-older technology than what I have; my audiologist asserts that what I’m trialing has better technology (e.g., log snippet below), so no benefit to change. Recent log:

Tue 11th
0815 Lydia reading to my back, as to a kid, from 10’ away, mostly OK
0900 Phone calls in and out just fine (Bluetooth: no surprise)
0930 Confirmation of Lydia overhearing call with Mazda, and verifying speech recognition from another other room with two doors in between mostly (not entirely) OK

I’ll be testing these again after my dinner tonight (Beltones, 3rd consecutive day) at a friend’s home, total 4 couples. But my newly reprogrammed Beltones don’t even approach that speech acuity, even with mucking around in my app…

@Skip said:

That aid is a 2-years-older technology than what I have; my audiologist asserts that what I’m trialing has better technology (e.g., log snippet below), so no benefit to change.

But the Phonak website shows this is the latest Audeo top-of-the line here2.

So I’m confused if your current model is 2 years newer? Could it be that your audi is pushing Beltone over Phonak? Maybe cuz your audi is more familiar with or comfortable fitting the Beltone?

@1Bluejay said:

But the Phonak website shows this is the latest Audeo top-of-the line here.

So I’m confused if your current model is 2 years newer? Could it be that your audi is pushing Beltone over Phonak? Maybe cuz your audi is more familiar with or comfortable fitting the Beltone?

Hi, 1Bluejay,

I see you come late to the party - my earlier posts showed: I engaged 4 different suppliers in a quest to do 3 simple things (simple but apparently very difficult to achieve) which my Beltone rep AND a factory rep weren’t able to achieve (nor - on the first round - has the more technically astute rep an hour up the road); two have been rejected, and two remain. Phonak so far is the leader.

Here’s what I have (the Lumity line 70s): Features - Phonak Audéo Lumity hearing aids | Phonak.

The Beltone (maybe the same unit as the ReSound made by the same plant, GN, in Germany) is a franchised or otherwise corporate one-off, whereas the Phonak is from a supplier who chose that over Widex, Starkey, Oticon, and perhaps one or two others I’ve forgotten.

And…

@tenkan said:

It seems to me that it’s not the “providers” and nor is it the Beltone 17’s (these are exactly the same as ReSound Ones, which have a pretty good reputation)
this is a “brain” thing, we hear with our brain (just ask Oticon or the Oticonians) ears are just the pathway, there’s no magic unfortunately, this I suspect will get better for you over time, how much time tho? it’s different for a lot of people, some weeks others months.

So far I’ve had them in for 3 straight days. I’ve tested the speech portion in just about any environment you could imagine, from F2F 2’ apart, to normal living-room conversation, also F2F, to around-the-house but not F2F, to - first, dead quiet, and then ‘normal’ - restaurant 4 folks F2F, then, respectively, a 6- and 8-person private dinner, the last being last night, including all the sequential tests shown earlier, but this time with the external mike (“MyPalPro”) added after the non-performance of the unaided portions of the app.

We just finished an Easter Cantata which was based around US slave-era spirituals. One of them had the phrase “and he never said a mumbalin’ word” (meaning that he made no complaint during all His abuse and eventual death on the cross). I likened that dinner, even with the external mike, as “He never heard a mumbalin’ word!” because while I ratcheted up the volumes and cast my net further (the MPPro), all it did was make it louder.

The host had a very out-of-tune old upright piano, so the test I’d hoped to apply (do percussive music sounds distort?) could not be proven one way or the other, as it was badly enough OOTune that my pianist agreed that it was already discordant. So that test will have to wait until Sunday, when I will have several opportunities to hear a perfectly tuned piano.

But my test clock is ticking; I need to either get another extension, return it/them, or pull the trigger on both/one-to-keep and declare the Beltones a lo$t cau$e, very soon. As close as those are, I (at least so far) have refused to believe that my Imagine 17s don’t have similar capabilities, but no skilled audiologist has been able to make them perform to those others’ level.

Sigh…

In reply to @PaulC

@PaulC said:

and make gain structure as linear as possible.

thanks for your comment - can you explain this statement please? Do you mean you choose a frequency (in this case a mid) and cut evenly at the low, medium and loud column? (so, let’s say cut 5db at 2000, at low. medium and loud.)?

In reply to @Skip

@Skip said:

I (at least so far) have refused to believe that my Imagine 17s don’t have similar capabilities, but no skilled audiologist has been able to make them perform to those others’ level.

It sure would be interesting to have a tech comparison of the physical aid and the software program for the Imagine 17s and Phonak P70s side-by-side.

Analogy could be like BMW next to Lexus where the mechanical and diagnostic systems are different and therefore performance can never be identical in all situations.

Go with your GUT here. You’ve done a lot of tests (granted, maybe not whipping out the Imagines and putting in the Phonaks in the same minute), so choose the one that best suits the majority of your hearing preferences.

It can’t get any better cuz there is no perfection in hearing aids like there are for glasses/vision Rx. We have to “fill in the blanks” with our minds like Tenkan says.

In reply to @user172

Linear means equal gain at all input levels at a given frequency band/channel(s). In most manufacturers’ software, there are values for soft gain, medium gain, and loud gain. Linear would mean the same numbers at all three input levels.

Got it - so yes, As I was stating. (or trying to). So this counters the “Fletcher-Munson curve” concept doesn’t it. I had a friend/self programmer tell me he programs the soft and medium differently from the loud. So , using your method, including ducking (lowering) certain frequencies rather than adding gain, you would choose an “offending” frequency and lower it to the same amount at soft med and loud. Correct?

In reply to @1Bluejay

@1Bluejay said:

Go with your GUT here. You’ve done a lot of tests (granted, maybe not whipping out the Imagines and putting in the Phonaks in the same minute), so choose the one that best suits the majority of your hearing preferences.

Hi, again.

Two issues:
At this point, none meet my needs on any of the metrics. I have no interest in owning more than one not-fulfilling-my-needs set of hearing aids.
and
Other than Beltones, both are still in the trial periods (plural as both have been extended, the P to 4-24, and the S to 5-14). If none meet the metrics I’ll admit defeat and become one of the non-musicians, and - perhaps - get my wife and me to classes; she’d have to accompany me to any group functions which didn’t have an interpreter, however.

The mantra of needing to wear any aids (same type in both ears I presume to be superior to one-each) for extended (so far my longest continuous since starting has been this most recent Beltone complete redo, from inspection to to programming, of 3 days) periods makes any quick comparisons difficult, despite my obsessive record keeping (see bottom, e.g., for my notes on the newly-programmed Beltones). But I continue to do the best I can in assisting my audiologists in achieving my nirvana - the functionality I had before my left ear infection, which was immediately preceded by the purchase of the new Beltone Imagine 17s.

Here’s my log, which stopped at last night (I’m now wearing, and recording data for, the Phonaks), from the time of my new audiogram and programming:

Wed 12th
1230 New audiology, etc. - wear for long period before change on any test (brain fog/acclimatization)
1530 Lydia foggy speech…
1555 Speech very difficult as I entered the car dealership for recall/service
1600 Tried bumping the treble…
1630 Service rep sitting right next to me and looking at me was understandable - Not necessarily indicative as I was looking at her as she spoke two feet away
1725 Chance Meeting - six people - friends - sitting at a restaurant table in a silent atmosphere lanai (no other people there) was virtually indecipherable
1730 Enabled speech clarity on the all around
1735 No joy. Switched to ultrafocus setting
1830 That helped a little but not enough so I bumped the volume
1835 Still indistinct
1855 Tried the restaurant setting
1910 No joy
1920 Tried the speech focus and then the “hear everyone.”
1925 Still no joy either case.
1930 Tried raising the volume. Just added more volume, no clarity
1940 Returned to all-around, “speech clarity” when back home
1945 Lydia muddy
2000 Put in charger…

Thu 13th
0700 Insertion uneventful
0900 Lydia muddy, even across from me (“all-around”, no tweak)
1020 Necessary to stand in front of her to understand and even that marginal
1500 Lydia deteriorating (??)
1540 Bluetooth call to pharmacy challenging/understanding difficult (??)
1600 Acuity worsening rather than improving and volume seems to be decreasing
1800 Supper with friends fair with bumpup on volume
2030 Charger…

Fri 14th
0520 Insertion uneventful; no feedback
0800 Lydia indistinct from next room (heard, not a word understood)
1130 Continued/continuous speech inability
1500 Ladies Trivia at retirement center, No clarity.
1530 Went to ultra focus, raised volume 2 clicks, plenty of volume, nearly no clarity
1800 Dinner with friends
1905 Conversation for about an hour has been futile unless I go to ultrafocus and bump up at least three notches and it’s still difficult - it’s just louder
1930 I went to the MyPalPro (the external mike); no joy
1935 Ramped up the volume and all it was was noisier
2000 Attempted piano check failed due to hostess’ available-but-severely-out-of-tune decorative instrument; will try again at church Sunday
2100 Charger…

In reply to @1Bluejay

@1Bluejay said:

It sure would be interesting to have a tech comparison of the physical aid and the software program for the Imagine 17s and Phonak P70s side-by-side.

According to my rep, who previously was a 25-year independent, and is a current officer on the FL Association for Hearing or some such named professional group (like I am an officer on the Board of Directors of Seven Seas Cruising Association, e.g.), the Phonak programming software and app are generations ahead of the Beltone equivalent. My “new” (one with extensive experience in the hearing field prior to Beltone, including an , an MBA-HAS) rep thinks the Phonak to be the technical equivalent of my Beltone aids.

So, I suspect that watching my Phonak guy play with his screen, but not really understanding the finer points, confirms those assessments. But “equivalent” to me means that the better results the Phonak is currently achieving is a product of the skill of the manipulator, not a deficiency in capability of the Beltones.

Of course, I could be entirely mistaken in all of this, and merely clueless. But my previous BT rep declared that I should come out of retirement and become an audio guy, as I (to him) clearly understood what was happening, and my musing on potential solutions to individual issues has been technically correct. He even said I should get the programming SW (I have no idea how I might do that) and play with it myself - though that might have merely been fatigue over all we’ve tried so far, including (now 2, if you count the recent change of offices) reversion and starting over with new and programming.

Sigh…

MY EMPATHY for sure what you are going through - I can identify.
Maybe I missed it - sorry if I did - but why don’t you get another pair of Beltone that seems to have done so well for you. Early in my hearing-deficit world I went to see various audiologists offering invitations to come in and try a pair for a week - I had not much to compare it to but I went to Beltone once and saw different audiologists there - the last one pronounced “this is what you need” - and it was amazingly clear but like I said I hadn’t a lot of experience what to expect. Anyway, I can no way recall what hearing aids there were but I wish I knew - I doubt they have kept records of people who just came in for week-long trial. Aside from my inexperience THE COST was a shock to my system and so I pretty much nixed the idea - but still I wish I knew.

Anyway I’m confused (a state that I seem to be in more often than I’m comfortable with) why you don’t go back to Beltone. Is Beltone carried by any other audiologists other than dedicated Beltone store (which is where I went). Maybe you already answered my question but I confess I haven’t read all the entire discussion.

I hope you find the answer - having had something that worked so well I can fully imagine your despair.

He’s in a new pair of Beltone right now, they just sound bad to him.

Seems like there’s a lot of tweak this, tweak that. Unclear what the limits of the left ear are. It would be nice to see showing that he is, in fact, appropriately meeting targets, particularly at higher frequencies given his comments that everything is muddy, and then see what his perception is from there.

@Skip Looking back at those again–which hearing aids are from ‘Advanced Hearing Aid Centre’. Is that the Phonaks that seem to be heading the pack? Do you, by chance, have tall, narrow ear canals?

In reply to @kcsummerkc

@kcsummerkc said:

MY EMPATHY for sure what you are going through - I can identify.

Hi, KC…

The Beltones I had when the offices changed were already out-of-service-time, so going back, assuming I might find a pair of such antiques, is impossible. Any defect would not be repairable.

Then, too, there’s the question of the rapid progression of my hearing loss, presumed a factor of my severe infection shortly after purchasing the new set. So, I don’t have to “go back” to Beltone; I never left, and in fact, had my new set not been as horribly affected (or my hearing and new audiology caused the kerfuffle) by the upshot of the infection and the failure-to-resolve going on for a year, I’d not have explored alternatives.

My Phonaks were done under my insurance plan; it’s $2450 against a base of 9K+. The audi

@Neville said:

@user424 Looking back at those audiograms again–which hearing aids are from ‘Advanced Hearing Aid Centre’. Is that the Phonaks that seem to be heading the pack? Do you, by chance, have tall, narrow ear canals?

who tried 3 different ones was $8800. The demo pair of Miracle Ear would have been $5190. The Sam’s were/are 5K+ - and the trade-in, “discount” reduced Beltones were $5000. So, ostensibly, I’ve had $33000+ worth of hearing aids in my ears over the last 3 months. It’s not for failure-to-attempt :frowning:

My ear canals, based on power domes I’ve seen on friends’ aids, are huge, and I dunno about “tall” (presumed you mean ‘long’), but I can easily reach the drums. My left takes the largest available , and the right then next one down. But my two not-Beltones are molds, and I kept the unsuccessful (the receiver kept walking out, but, somehow, the Beltone receivers stay reasonably secure) Sam’s molds, so all of what I’m trying/wearing are now molds; the Sam’s, after the second, deeper molds had the same issue, are now hard, but the Phonak (and the purloined first set of Sam’s) is/are silicone. None have any feedback leak, other than sometimes needing some fiddling to seat fully. But there’s some concern from a prior respondent to the potential for negative results with molds…

The providers have weighed in with great thoughts, and you are clearly doing your research. It is hard to evaluate how much is the change in your hearing and how much is sub-perfect adjustments. It is not going to give you back what you lost, or what you had before with your prior Beltones, so the comparisons can be an exercise in frustration.

Rather than taking , have you considered being evaluated for a cochlear implant? It won’t likely help at all with your music, but it may not be any worse, and you could continue to have better speech understanding. I am 61 and had my implant in December. My family is quite pleased, as am I, at my better hearing and ability to be involved with conversations. Just yesterday, they shared “I don’t have to talk louder anymore,” and “it’s so nice not have to repeat everything”

Something to think about.

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