Skip to content
HearingTracker
Log in

Hearing well in noise (with and without assistive technologies)

This topic is closed.

33 replies2.5k viewsLast reply

Jump
Link to this topic

In reply to @cohen

@cohen said:

I use a prescription called Phonak Adaptive Digital Contrast. It preserves envelope structure of a speech signal, but sacrifices temporal fine structure. The standard phonak algorithm does the opposite. For people who are quite lossy, the contrast algorithm can be more helpful. I also use semi linear amplification, not the prescribed setting.

This is an interesting thread to me. I am trying out semi-linear amplification, and will also try the Phonak Adaptive Digital Contrast prescription. But @cohen, can you tell me what ‘temporal fine structure’ means? I know what the words mean, but unsure of the context.
Thanks

Mike.

I’m grateful you posted and others have responded so well.

I shall follow to see if I can enhance my ability to listen and hear with the hearing aids I have.

DaveL
Toronto

In reply to @Mike59

Google is your friend concerning TFS.
Phonak Digital Contrast slows processing down so the sounds are not so complex. This makes speech understanding easier for those with severe/profound hearing loss.

This is my understanding. Barb might explain it better or correct me.

In reply to @Mike59

Hi Mike,
Raudrive is right as far as I understand it. Some folks whose ears don’t process well enough to understand the fine structure of speech and its fast variation use more of the speech cues in the envelope to understand meaning. Such folks are usually more hard of hearing. Think of a fast-oscillating (that is, high frequency) sine wave (temporal fine structure). Then draw a line connecting the sine wave tops to each other and bottoms to each other (envelope). That is my crude concept. What I have heard is that when hearing aids process sound, you usually can keep the integrity of one of those signals but it’s at the expense of the other. But there are lots of engineers here who can explain far better than I can. I started experimenting with it because research with animals carrying the kind of cochlear gene mutation I have show abnormally slow response to sounds. I thought, since I do programming of my hearing aids, why not try a prescription Phonak specifically made for more severe loss? Who knows what parts of speech I am using to understand people in groups or in noise? All I know is I don’t do that well, so trying different approaches to hearing better appealed to me.

As others have said keeping the open domes and wanting a better signal to noise ratio in noise does not add up. It can help to have a speech in noise test done to determine at what level can you understand complete sentences with background noise present. This can be very helpful when comparing open dome results to results.

One thing that can be important is to ensure that the on the hearing aids is set fairly high. Also many times the Phonak loud noise program is far too aggressive with removing noise and can be set to activate at a higher level or turned off completely from being part of the automatic settings.

There are different targets for hearing loss such as dsl 5 which would procide more amplification in the upper mid frequencies which could improve things for you. Feedback would be a roadblock. A deep fitted mold is probably the best option if you were to try it.

Frequency shifting is good. Its best to measure the narrow band s and sh to determine if the sounds are properly separated. Also measuring the maximum audible output frequency and ensuring that it hasn’t been changed too much by the shifting. Purdue has great resources about this. Google maof maximum audible output and it should come up. Or add purdue to the search.

These are just some tools and they still might not improve things unfortunately. But there is potential for them to improve things. Anyone is free to dispute what I’ve said or give me further insights as always.

Tea,

i have the same hardware as you - Phonic Audio Marvel and a Roger One in. When I go to the gym, the music being piped in is not to my liking. So I play my iTunes on the phone via bluetooth to my ’s. But if I don’t adjust the Bluetooth setting in my Phone app (the Bluetooth setting only appears in the app when bluetooth is being used) I will hear my music faintly and still hear the gym noise. So I go to ‘Adjust Program’ and lower the background noise almost halfway to the right. Then hit ‘Close’. Immediately the gym music and voices around me disappear and I can work out to my own music. The one negative is that it blocks out anyone trying to talk to me but I am in the gym to workout not talk.

I use the same method with my Roger On in a noisy restaurant. I turn on the Roger and it shows up in my Phone app. Don’t lay it on the table as you don’t want to pick up 360 degrees around you. I again go to background noise and adjust it to block out whatever I need to block yet still allow me to hear my wife, even though her voice will be quieter. It is a trade-off but some restaurants are SO loud I need to do something. I let my wife know that I have adjusted the program and ask her to make sure she faces me and talks a bit louder. It is the only way I can go out to eat comfortably. It takes a few tries to figure out the optimal adjustment on the Phone app but eventually I got it right.

Mike

I’m still so pleased with the (now old) Bose Hearphones, that have not been made/available for several years, except on eBay etc. I have a non-demanding hearing life, but they work so well for me, including my one noisy situation per week, where I greet visitors at a busy park, answering questions and giving directions. And they are perfect for streaming the phone/TV/iPad. The Orsana product mentioned above sounds intriguing. It works in concert with existing hearing aids.

In reply to @cohen

@cohen Thank you for this, Barb. Really helpful and interesting. I self-programme too, and I tried ‘semi-linear’ compression for a week. It was definitely a more natural sound, but wasn’t any better for hearing speech. I have now reverted to ‘prescribed compression’ but am trying out ‘Phonak Adaptive Digital Contrast’. So far, this seems encouraging, but I will need a few more days with it in different environments. Thanks again.

Hi Mike,
I’m glad it was helpful. Knowing my brain changes as my hearing does, I continue to play around with the major settings from time to time. For me, semi-linear still seems most clear. Interestingly, I think I may have found another thing that is helpful to me–but I’m not done testing so I can’t say for sure. As I mentioned, I have tried Phonak Adaptive Digital Contrast. But as a recent iteration, now I roll off the highs more strongly. I have true deafness, so some frequencies are just gone and it’s strictly hair cell issues. So I am re-exploring the original vs contrast settings now that I eliminated more highs with the programming. I find I’m doing better with the original Phonak setting than before. So I wonder, when I cut off the highs where my ears are pretty crappy, maybe I can use the original setting more effectively because I am not (1) cramming too many high frequencies into a small region or (2) amplifying sounds that make it harder for me to understand speech. Some folks with high frequency loss have degraded speech perception when highs are amplified, others don’t. Dr. Donald Schum cited that finding in one of his lectures. That’s as far as I’ve gotten experimenting so far. I’m reminded of the old saying, “you can’t pluck a violet without troubling a star.” There are so many interconnected things to explore! Good luck with your programming and thanks for letting me know I did something helpful.

In case it helps…The administrator here posted Phonak instructions showing how to fill in the highs when talkers are wearing masks. I had my audiologist program that change into my settings. Made a huge difference for me I posted a link myself to help others.

I have . They help me too. I was losing sound out from my receivers using open domes. That’s fixed. Power domes are dreadful in my ear canals. Threw mine out.

I found big improvement changing the “Dynamic” setting on the Phonak APP. Going towards the soft end made a huge difference. But that’s with my hearing loss which isn’t so profound.

Hope these thoughts help you I care.
DaveL
Toronto

I also tried the “Dynamic” setting on the APP, yes, this is an improvement.
How and where can this be also adjusted in the Target software?

In reply to @cohen

@cohen Thanks for this, Barb. This is something new for me to consider … the possibility that I have been concentrating on amplifying highs too much when there seems little point in that, given my loss! And how it might affect understanding of speech. I will give that (elimination of some of the highs) a go. As you say, I appreciate this varies from person to person.

@DaveL Thanks too, Dave. I hadn’t seen the ‘mask’ post, so will check that out. I too have tried increasing ‘dynamic’ towards soft on the app. it certainly makes a difference in quiet environments, but haven’t yet given it a proper test in the real world.

Thank you both … much appreciated.

2Mike59

I have some programs saved. My Phonak Audeo Paradise P90R’s set up is a little wonky right now.

My audiologist has my hearing aids starting in “Calm Situation” that he has doctored with settings changed to help me. If I switch programs without the app, using the controls on my hearing aids it goes to “speech in loud noise” I’ve done by accident.

My issue: battery life is an issue. Mine are rechargeable. About 3? or later in the afternoon I have to charge my hearing aids.

My work around is to put my hearing aids in, then get my phone, turn it on. Then I go the App and turn it on…and select Automatic.

I’ll get him to change this back to Automatic as the start-up. I need an appointment to do that.

Point of this comment is that programs like Restaurant or Speech in Loud Noise seem to me to be battery drainers.

DaveL
Toronto

Related discussions