Disappointed after annual review of Phonak Audeo Paradise P90R's

Well done.
My HA’s don’t work well on the street. I live in the flight path of a major airport about a minute and a half from touch-down. I stood with a fellow with hearing aids though and watched as he and my wife had a fine conversation. I couldn’t understand a word.
DaveL
Toronto

Latest.

This quick setup I received is c*ap…Now when I answer my cell phone by tapping on my ear, my hearing aids end the call. It even happens if I’m on a cell call, and put my glasses on to read!

Now I’m really unhappy with my used-to-be audiologist who suggested I needed an audiologist that can help me more. And did a quick setup erasing the programs we had configured together over almost two years!

I’ve tried resetting this feature using the myPhonak APP and didn’t work.

DaveL
Toronto

You can disable the tap feature in Target.

I have not read the whole sorry tale but want to pick out one item:

@kgmgpm said:

we balanced the frequencies according to the test but toned down quite a bit to match what I was actually hearing

I have two sets of aids. The Phonak Marvel 90 and base model Siemens. I keep the latter as spares. I had the latter cleaned and tuned at a store and in an acoustically dead room, no box. She tuned the aids and the sound was what I describe as brittle. She then tweaked the settings to tone down the brittle sound and improve the speech reception.

In comparison with the Phonak the Siemens seem to have a higher mean volume

Regarding hearing your wife, consider having your wife at the test so that it can be tuned to her voice (if you want).

As an aside, I also try and ‘train’ my wife. I can hear her quite well in my forward hemisphere in the same room. I try and stop her ‘communicating’ a longer message to my back or from another room. They are Aids not a Fix for hearing.

Thanks.
I have an iMac. And I don’t have the computer skill to use this old computer with Target (which is pc based I’m told.)
I’m on fixed income; computer replacement isn’t in the cards.

DaveL
Toronto

It’s a shame that any of the accomplished self programmers can’t maybe try a remote fitting session

Hi Dave,

Just read back a fair bit on this thread, and a few red flags appear about the programming, and the effects of it come to mind, and many can be addressed in the Target software. Your Audiogram is similar to mine. My new Audiologist used to be a Phonak partner for 10 years. I’ll include some of his comments, that I can remember.

Last year I was given a pair of Marvel M70s. They suggested closed domes (2 little holes), but to me they itch so I asked for custom moulds. I bought a Phonak TV Connector. These aren’t RIC.

I believe my first fit was the default. This was not good at all, as my speech recognition was awful, especially in 4 important (to me) environments:

1. The Pub (UK) - a speech in noise environment with many speaking at the same time, with at least one being a very quiet talker.
2. Quiz Night (same pub, different room) - Struggling to hear the questions, even with a Roger On, on her table.
3. Meetings in an echoey room - lots of echo. Roger On helps here, but not perfect.
4. Hearing the wife while using the TV Connector - Word recognition poor, which frustrates her, and me too.

I wasn’t happy as they were both quieter and had less definition, than the Phonaks I had before. I returned to ask if they could turn them up! He tried a REM, but his machine wouldn’t connect, so he turned them up 3 notches (not sure which buttons he pressed). Things were louder, but word recognition still awful. 3rd and final visit (different Audiologist again), some of the upper frequencies were increased, but she said: “I can’t turn them up any more, as your HAs aren’t powerful enough”. I know that last point is just untrue, and she didn’t know what she was doing. This was the last straw!

These Marvels are state supplied and private Audiologists won’t or can’t touch them by law, so I knew I had to buy some, so I contacted my new Audiologist, and told him I’d like some Phonak P90 13T’s. I bought them online, and they came with closed domes (2 holes), programmed to the Audiogram he took. I still had poor word recognition, but they were a slight improvement. Meanwhile, he did an extensive hearing test including: Word recognition, Uncomfortable sound levels and conductive. He insisted I’d get far better results if I had either Slimtip custom moulds or C-Shell custom moulds. He took ear impressions and ordered Slimtips.

First fit
His comments: “Phonak have very severe feedback suppression, and it will take a huge chunk out of your high frequency gain levels, especially with domes, as sound will leak out of them to the microphones more readily”.
He then spent a lot of time on disabling feedback suppression, increasing the gain on higher frequencies, but also reducing it in the lows and mids. He then worked on the Compression settings in the high frequencies. His aim here was to boost the gain of the quiet sounds, and limit mids and lows (the 3 lines on your gain chart). He had some trouble here. Even with feedback suppression turned off, the software just wouldn’t allow him to increase some of the gains. He said “this is frustrating as other manufaturers allow increasing up to the line”. He did all he could. We then went outside in the traffic. He asked me to face the road. A large truck went past and he said: “What did you have for breakfast?”. Toast and marmalade was my answer! I heard him perfectly. I went to the pub to test that environment, and with concentration, I could hear just about every word, even with people not facing me.

Since then, I’ve started self programming the Marvel M70’s. I’ve switched on the 110% setting. They are louder than the Paradise, but more brittle sounding, but speech recognition is much improved, as I increased some gains, and decreased some mids and lows. I’ve tried to switch off feedback suppression too, but not really sure I’m doing that right. I also don’t know how to adjust the Compression.

I dislike Autosense: I don’t see the point of “calm or comfort” settings as, I want to hear things, not block them. If I want calm, I either turn them down or take them out. They both take away clarity. I also prefer the full sound range as default, even if it makes the world a noisier place. I’ve installed Music as the startup/default program, and also set music as the default for the TV Connector. I can hear my wife far better because of this.

My conclusions, that hopefully will help you:

1. These hearing aids are excellent, but you really need a good audiologist, I’m very lucky, he’s well worth the money.
2. I believe feedback suppression is the main cause of your lack of speech recognition. Just because you don’t hear feedback, doesn’t mean you aren’t getting any. The feedback suppression “may” have reduced your high frequency gains to avoid it, but at a huge cost in clarity.
3. Custom moulds will allow your Audiologist to increase the gain on those important speech frequencies. Streaming will be richer too, as the bass frequencies won’t leak out as much.
4. 110% & and 3-4 increases of volume may not help you as much as you think. You’re increasing the gain on all your frequences, which may overpower you. You may also be experiencing upwards masking, which, again, will impact word recognition. My Audiologist said “it’s not just about volume, as higher volumes can decrease your ears to work efficiently”
5. TV Connector settings could be changed to another default programme like music. There’s also a setting to change the overall gain in that programme. This may be the relationship between the TV Connector and the HA mics, not 100% sure but I’ve tried -2 dB and it seems better. I’m not touching my P90’s until I’ve had my final fitting next month. The wife is much clearer in the M70s than the P90s

Good luck sir, and take care

Peter

Thanks Ken!

I know that it’s the audi’s work that makes them good. I really appreciate your message.

Sincerely,

DaveL

Setup Problem Solved.

My new hearing aid practitioner has set up my hearing aids properly. They are Phonak Audeo Paradise P90R’s.
The practitioner is “Hearing Well Matters” in Burlington Ontario.

He found the the old audiologist had made two simple mistakes.

• Domes were not set right. I have closed domes (with two small holes). They were set as open domes.
• The left hearing aid was not setup to communicate with the right hearing aid.

So a number of the hearing aid features couldn’t work.

Today I was in the fitness centre at a large hospital.
I could hear what was being said by someone 20 feet away in front of me; they were one of many on treadmills and his back was to me. He was talking to an attendant and I understood every word in the noisy environment.
I could hear my friend behind me; He was 15 feet away.

I"m so grateful.

And…in the flightpath of a huge airport I talked easily to a group of 6 people. I understood them.
Planes had just taken off, and were about 1500 feet above us.

Wow Dave, I’m really pleased. Having the domes set as open will have reduced so many vital frequencies.

Thank you. Your explanation helps a lot! I regularly sent emails to the audiologist who provided the hearing aids telling him what my concerns were.

The new practitioner printed out a pro report, and user’s report. This is the first time I’m able to see what features my hearing aids have, and what the settings are. The selling audiologist would show me what programs he had turned on…that’s all.

Thanks Zebras.

My wife said last night, “Difference is night and day.”

First time in a year and a half I can hear.

DaveL

Great news! Obviously the audiologist is an idiot. But if Phonak is going to let idiots sell their products, can they do more to make them idiot-resistant? The fitting software (Target) could issue a warning before saving settings to a pair of unlinked aids, especially if it’s a matched pair that is linkable.

The audiologist who supplied the hearing aids is a gentleman who setup the hearing aids. I respect those qualities in him. However, I deserve a kick in the … for staying with him so long. I tried. I regularly said to him there’s something simple wrong. Something in the setup. I got excuses back. I should have walked.
Being able to hear is amazing. However, my life quality could have been so much better (and my wife’s too!) if he had set up the hearing aids right.

I like your suggestion. It would help a lot.
DaveL
Toronto