As the originator of this specific thread, I am going to respectfully ask that the very detailed technical discussion of the Oticon philosophy does not really belong here and should be undertaken on a different thread. I posted the question about pricing versus actual quality of the solution to learn more about why the selling prices of vary by up to 500% or more, and what you get for your money. I am owhere near ready for this type of technical discussion on 2 specific HA models.
So, it would be perfectly appropriate to say that someone prefers the Oticon approach over the Philips approach, but the very technical discussion is really not necessary, and actually not very understandable by a newbie to HAs.
That technical discussion really should be a separate thread that the people who can actually contribute to it and/or benefit from it can post their understanding and opinions of the technical differences. On THIS thread, it just blurs the quality versus cost discussion.
Sure, no problem. All you have to do was asked, and now that you asked, I’ll respectfully comply and refrain from the technical discussion.
But you gotta remember that you originally kept asking “Why, what am I missing here?” several times in your original post.
Hearing aids are very technical devices, and for Costco rebrands like with the Phonak and Signia lines, the technical answer can be sidestepped altogether because the technical content of the rebrand and the original model is exactly the same, so there’s no need to discuss technical differences there because there’s none. The difference is in the marketing and the mfg’s goal to outreach to more consumers.
But for the Oticon Real and the Philips HearLink 9040, which you did bring up in your original post as well, which are cousins and easily targeted for comparison, and are not straightforward rebrands, the answer to your question “Why, what am missing here?” lies in the technical differences between them. Hence the technical explanation of the differences to answer the question.
But it’s OK, too, if you feel like we’ve gotten into it too deep which doesn’t benefit non-techie folks. I totally respect that, and will refrain from diving into further technical discussions here. But actually that’s really all there is to it, and it’s already been laid out there already. No repeat necessary anyway.
Thank-you, Volusiano. I undertsand from the discussion that the Oticon and Philips solutions offer 2 different approaches to managing the sound environment, and that some users will prefer one over the other.
To me, the important question is: Does an like the top of the line Oticon offer an overall quality of solution that is SUPERIOR enough to merit a net cost that is 4 or 5 times that of the Philips or Jabra that Costco sells? Many of the respondents seem to be saying, “Not necessarily 4 or 5 times the value, but it is not the “same” as the costco offerings”.
The remaining question that I still feel is unanswered is: Are “good” (more experienced, more skilled, more detail-oriented, and more persevering) audis, which are needed to get the best out of ANY HA, more likely to be found at higher priced chain clinics than at Costco? Or, is it more realistically “the luck of the draw”?
Or, is it more realistically “the luck of the draw”?
If couldn’t be anything else, I mean can you pick a brilliant doctor or pharmacist just by how much they charge or where they work?
Jim just pick one and go for it, you’ll know after your first session if you want to carry on as a regular customer.
To me, the important question is: Does an HA like the top of the line Oticon offer an overall quality of solution that is SUPERIOR enough to merit a net cost that is 4 or 5 times that of the Philips or Jabra that Costco sells?
Many of the respondents seem to be saying, “Not necessarily 4 or 5 times the value, but it is not the “same” as the costco offerings”.
For me, the short answer is “no”.
As for people who say “it’s not the same”, which includes me, the answer is “so what?” So if money is not an issue for you, and you don’t mind spending 3-4-5x the money on what you think is a superior solution, then go for it.
But “it’s not the same” here doesn’t always translate to Oticon being superior to Philips. The Oticon implementation may seem more broad and sophisticated on paper than the Philips AI implementation, but it’s the end result that matters. And sometimes simplicity wins over complexity. It all depends on the perception of the user on the end result.
Are “good” (more experienced, more skilled, more detail-oriented, and more persevering) audis, which are needed to get the best out of ANY HA, more likely to be found at higher priced chain clinics than at Costco? Or, is it more realistically “the luck of the draw”?
The short answer is absolutely no.
My experience with hearing aids has been very mixed with audiologist and . My best fitter was at Costco.
Now if we talk about both of my fitters we’re very educated audiologist. One was ok and the other was excellent.
It’s a never ending discussion.
And please remember, your brain will adapt to any properly fit hearing aids.
I did not know that there actually are “inidividually owned clinics”. In this modern age of large scale businesses pushinh small businesses out of business, that is surprising to hear - sort of like a corner gorcery versus a supermarket or a non-franchised hardware store versus Amazon.
What brands of do such independent clinics sell? And how do they compete successfully with both the chain clinics AND Costco?
What brands of HAs do such independent clinics sell? And how do they compete successfully with both the chain clinics AND Costco?
We sell all of them.
We have to provide superior service.
Honestly, I say that a bit flippantly. I’ve only ever been in the independent setting, so my experience with all other settings is indirect through colleagues or patients. But patients come to us from elsewhere and then they stay. I think that there are poor independent clinics out there just as there are good and poor providers in all other settings, but I suppose that if an independent clinic has been around for a long time in the face of these big competitors, that’s probably a sign that they are doing something right.
I have an opinion on your remaining question, about fitting expertise.
I have a severe hearing loss, but it’s a normal, age-related one where the high frequencies roll off relatively smoothly.
The way that Costco does all of it’s fittings is with . This takes a lot of the required fitting magic out of the equation. For me it just works - REM fitting and I am pretty much good to go, with a minor tweak or two to get things like streaming volume right, or fix a L/R volume imbalance. And I’ll bet that most age-related hearing loss is not terribly different from mine.
So I think of Costco as hitting the mainstream of the market, the sweet spot as it were, where the big volumes are and where there is no serious need for more advanced fitting.
Now, if I had a more complex hearing loss I don’t think that Costco would have the experience to fit me for best hearing. There are doctors of audiology out there, who have many years of education. I would look for one, if I had a complex situation.
But here is the thing: You mention ten grand large for HA from a HA chain. Now, I’ve never been inside a Miracle Ear or equivalent store, but I’m guessing that the HCP that they have there aren’t necessarily 8-year doctors of audiology. Don’t know. But if they aren’t, why would we expect that they would necessarily do a better job of fitting than the Costco HCP, who go through a standard fitting process and seem to get good results for most people?
The answer to your general OP is what people have been wondering for a very long time: Why are hearing aids so bloody damned expensive and is it possible that Costco can sell truly premium quality hearing aids at 5X times less than others? And the U.S. government has had the same sort of question for many years, wondering why HA devices have to be such a financial burden on the segment of the population that is perhaps living on a fixed income and so heavily burdened by the $$ that they go without these life-enhancing devices? And that is the genesis of the changes in the new laws here that have promoted hearing aids - the government has seen the obvious problem.
My answer to your general OP question is that any place that is selling a premium HA at $10K when Costco is selling the same or equivalent at $1.5K, with no clear advantage in fitting process/skill, service after the sale, loss/damage replacement policy, warranty terms, blah blah, is engaged in a,… well, insert your descriptive term here. And let’s dont pretend that Costco’s volume buying strength can possibly account for the difference - the Miracle Ears of the world aren’t exactly small. In other words, from what I can tell you are missing nothing in your analysis. Your Costco is less than a mile away? What are you waiting for, lol. There is zero risk and a huge potential $$ reward.
Torbill, yes, in the absence of any truly persuasive posting that says spending the 4 or 5 times more money will definitelt improve my outcomes, I do plan to buy at Costco. I have an appointment at Costco for this Wednesday (Nov. 15).
My does indeed show a hearing loss that is pretty typical. I have done as much research as I can on the 3 models of they offer. I eliminated one brand (Rexton) because of reports of too many user issues. I have eliminated the 2nd brand (Philips) only because their app is apparently not as good as the Jabra app, and I regard a good HA iPhonen app as an essential, given my engineering background and the drive for optimization that such a background promotes.
I will likely buy either a Jabra Enhance Pro 10 or the Pro 20 if it is available either right now or very soon, and will work as intelligently as I can with an audi, with the relatively recent knowledge I have acquired here on the forum and elsewhere, to optimize its effectiveness for me.
My wife says, and I agree, that I need a solution NOW not at some possibly indeterminate future date, as it has become notably more difficult for her and I to communicate comfortably without repetition being required when more than a few feet apart.
I also have particular difficulty when she tries to make a comment or ask a question during a TV show, where I have recently been finding it very difficult to untangle her words from that of the TV. This specific problem by itself helps me to understand rather vividly why HA manufacturers have focused in so aggressively on managing background noise.
I had managed over a period of many years to avoid having to actually get a pair of HAs, despite having a hearing attenuation caused by my tubes being continually notably congested, because an doctor correctly identified the tubes issue and prescribed an effective nasal flush (Pulmicort) that greatly improved things. But normal aging has finally taken its additional toll, and the tubes issue plus the normal aging issue have finally combined to create a combination that needs electronic mitigation.
Based on my rather typical audiogram, I suspect that Costco will find that configuring a solution to my needs will not be very challenging. I think perhaps the biggest issue will be determining whether the M& option will work well for me. I am eager to try that, as I would value the improved directional information, even though it might make determination of the correct hardware to use more challenging for the audi, to find that ideal degree of “venting” between too much inclusion and too much sound leakage and the feedback that could cause.
One advantage I think I bring to this is that I have no default desire to “make my hearing sound exactly like it used to be”. Being an engineer by both training and natural inclination, I see any electronic solution that will make my hearing better as desirable, versus scary. I think “The Borg” in the Star Trek series had the right idea with their vast array of better sensory devices!
My biggest concern is the need to remember, and the inconvenience, to take out and then later put back in the HAs when target shooting, doing woodworking, casting Lead alloys, motorcycling, or TIG welding, as all those activities would both damage HAs and interfere with the wearing of the proper personal protection devices needed for them.
But here is the thing: You mention ten grand large for HA from a HA chain. Now, I’ve never been inside a Miracle Ear or equivalent store, but I’m guessing that the HCP that they have there aren’t necessarily 8-year doctors of audiology. Don’t know. But if they aren’t, why would we expect that they would necessarily do a better job of fitting than the Costco HCP, who go through a standard fitting process and seem to get good results for most people?
They don’t use dr’s of audiology either. Hearing aid specialist, and big. pressure to sell.
I have done as much research as I can on the 3 models of HAs they offer.
No, you haven’t. You can’t buy something like a hearing aid by reading. You can’t choose a service provider by reading. You can’t even hope to find ‘the best’ by limiting yourself to 3 models among - what? - dozens?
As someone who went to Costco intending to buy from them but ended up buying from an independent audi, I now think you have hit the nail on the head with this post (I didn’t realize it at the time though). I think a lot of it comes down to the audi and I do think that is luck of the draw in a lot of cases.
In my case, I had bought my first from an independent clinic, without realizing that Costco even sold HAs. I had a great experience with that audi, however by the time I was ready to replace those HAs my audi had moved out of the city. Since I had to start working with someone new anyway, I decided to go to Costco. The experience was very different. The Costco audi was a nice person, and the hearing test was well done. But once the test was done, she was no ‘help’. She gave me brochures of the HAs that they sell with the prices, and said it was up to me which one I wanted to get. When I asked which she recommended, she told me they were all good, and essentially told me it depends on how much I want to spend. Additionally, I had and was leaning towards staying with them (Costco was only selling one type), but was hoping that I could get some that could be controlled with my phone for volume, etc, and she told me that these didn’t exist, that they would be too small to hold the required electronics, which I had trouble believing but I didn’t know enough to question her on it. I left without purchasing anything to think about it, and discovered that you can in fact buy CIC HAs that have bluetooth, although not at Costco. I was then left with the (incorrect) impression that Costco’s HAs were like their TVs used to be - a good deal as long as you were ok with technology that was a couple of years old. Since I can only get insurance coverage to help out every 5 years, I wasn’t keen on buying HAs that I felt were already several years ‘out of date’.
So I went back to the private clinic, and met with a different audi. She asked me lots of questions about my lifestyle, issues with my current HAs, talked to me about the pros and cons of several different brands for my loss, and made recommendations. She recommended a no obligation trial of the hearing aids she recommended based on my hearing test and our discussion and I couldn’t have been happier - although I don’t think I would have paid for them upfront without the trial (like you have to do at Costco) because they were rics and I didn’t think I wanted .
So in my case it was the audi that made all the difference, and knowing what I now know I probably should have tried a different Costco. My only issue remaining with Costco is the lack of ability to do a trial. I know they have a generous return policy, but to me that is not the same as trialing - I’d have to look into what that means for insurance, etc.
Why didn’t you request seeing a different audi at the same Costco, or go to another Costco? You could also find a lot of info about different brands on this site. For me, the independent audi that I saw before going to Costco didn’t inspire a lot of trust, especially when I considered how much his cost. I bought mine at Costco where my audi continues to provide everything I need, but I’m glad you found your own solution.
Your wife is always right, of course. ;-). And it brings up a point that I feel is important to my situation, and yours:
For my first four or so sets of there wasn’t a lot of improvement, generation-to-generation. Now it is different. Chip densities and performance seem to be catching up to what HA designers have likely understood for a long time but have been limited in what they could practically put into a small device. And seems to make a difference and is still in its late larval stage. Not to mention advancements like remote adjustments, hands-free cellphones, etc.
So I think of the present technical situation as being like what I experienced back when PC technology was moving forward at light speed. The tradeoff then was to buy today, knowing that your purchase would be obsolete in a few months. Or wait for the next generation. In other words, what is the best way to ride the technology curve?
Costco versus $10K becomes very relevant in ths sort of HA world, in this sense: Find the best HA fitter on the planet today and have a $10K HA fit perfectly to your present loss. And I’ll pretty much guarantee you that if technology in HA continues to improve as I have seen recently - not to mention accelerate - that you will be better off 2, 3, 4 years down the line by getting a reasonably fitted HA at $1.5K and riding the technology curve through frequent replacement. You can do just about anything you want to your 2018 BMW M3 and I’ll blow your doors off with recently announced $35K Volvo EV, grin.
I have eliminated the 2nd brand (Philips) only because their app is apparently not as good as the Jabra app, and I regard a good HA iPhonen app as an essential, given my engineering background and the drive for optimization that such a background promotes.
I’ve had ’s with a solid app that I used to make adjustments frequently as warranted by conditions. Now I have HA’s with a so-so app that I never need to use because the aids do a better job of adapting to conditions. I prefer the latter, and I have a technical background too.
PhilBob57: You said “No, you haven’t. You can’t buy something like a hearing aid by reading. You can’t choose a service provider by reading. You can’t even hope to find ‘the best’ by limiting yourself to 3 models among - what? - dozens?”
But You misunderstood me. I simply meant that once i had decided that there was insufficient evidence that the very costly were singificantly “superior” than the less costly Costco HAs, and I therefor was planning to buy from Costco, I simply researched the commentaries on the actual physical devices that Costco offers, and picked the one PHYSICAL DEVICE WITH MATCHING SOFTWARE that I think aligns best with my wants, out of the (only) 3 offered by Costco.
I realize I might or might not get a “good” audi, but I also realize that I might or might not get a good audi anywhere else, even though I would be paying 4 or 5 times more. I’m simply making a semi-informed choice based on what physical devices are available from my chosen purchase channel.
Exactly my situation. With the KS10 I had endless adjustability on the app. It did nothing to improve my hearing, but it was fun twisting the knobs until I realized that I was wasting my time. My new are so much better that I have no need for an app other than to adjust the equalizer for streaming, which fortunately it allows me to do.
Texas Hill Country
