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In reply to @pvc

@pvc said:

This is an attempt to explain credit card chargeback rights. It’s fairly straightforward if you are a buyer only. Though, if you buy and sell then it’s more complicated. First of all this applies to the United States (USA) only. Other countries may (or may not) have similar protection.

If you buy online you should consider protecting yourself by using credit card chargeback rights. What are credit card chargeback rights? They are given to you by state and federal law. In a nutshell if you don’t get what you paid for, then you can file a dispute asking the credit card company to get your money back. Just Google (credit card chargeback rights) for more detailed information. Don’t be afraid to use those rights.

Don’t put your trust in PayPal guarantees. Understand and put your trust in credit card chargeback rights given to you by state and federal law. Insure that a PayPal payment is 100% funded via a credit card and not via PayPal balance, and not via your banking account. You will lose your credit card chargeback rights with the latter two funding methods. But this is not simple to do. Your funding choices will be difficult and limited by PayPal if you buy and sell with the same PayPal account.

I use separate accounts for buying and selling to get around the PayPal limitations on funding. I keep separate email/Ebay/PayPal accounts, and, in order to keep the email separated for multiple accounts I use a Pop3 client (Thunderbird) to automatically collect email from various email accounts. You will need to be careful which account you logon with before buying, selling or even responding to email. I have become used to it.

Oh, PayPal also has a dollar limitation. You can only buy a few thousand worth on a credit card without connecting to your banking account. So in addition to multiple accounts, you occasionally have to be prepared to replace your buyer account with new email/Ebay/PayPal accounts. Plus you cannot re-use the same credit card number so you will also need a new credit card, or your spouse’s credit card.

If you choose not to have separate accounts then PayPal will make your life miserable until you connect PayPal to your banking account. And there goes your credit card chargeback rights out the window. Beware of PayPal replacing those rights with PayPal dispute procedures because there are some who know how to “game” the PayPal dispute procedures. This is not a rant against PayPal. It’s just true.

One final tip about filing a dispute with your credit card company. My credit card company requires that the merchandise is returned to the seller with confirmation. But only for certain dispute reasons. If the dispute reason is (Not satisfied with the merchandise) then return shipment is not a prerequisite to getting your money back. I always choose (Not satisfied with the merchandise) just in case the seller tries to “game” the dispute procedures by refusing to accept return shipment.

This is excellent advice, however, as an eBay frequent flyer (both buyer and seller), let me flesh it out a little bit more.

If you are an eBay buyer and are unhappy with the quality of merchandise you receive (or you buy an item you don’t receive at all!), it’s important to pay careful attention to Paypal’s procedures and pursue your grievance Paypal’s way, at least at first. The credit card chargeback law is a great thing to fall back on, but it should not be your line of first defense. Paypal has been known to close accounts and ban Paypal customers who simply contact their credit card company and file a chargeback without going through Paypal first. (And this is not unreasonable, in my opinion. These chargeback claims cost Paypal more money than properly pursued disputes, so I don’t blame them for booting users who first complain to their credit card company.)

Also, as in any dispute, there’s never a guarantee they’ll see it your way, so of course it is always possible to unfairly lose a dispute where you have a legitimate complaint about a seller. But Paypal most often gives the benefit of the doubt to buyers, at least those who follow their procedures and don’t abuse dispute priviliges. So start with eBay/Paypal and pursue your dispute with the seller according to eBay’s rules.

Check out this page summarizing eBay’s Buyer Protection plan:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/buyer-protection.html1
Be aware of that 45 day deadline. The clock starts the day you paid and not when the seller shipped or when you got the item. If you initiate a dispute 46 days after you paid, you’re going to lose your dispute with eBay on those grounds alone. Some sellers have been known to string buyers along with fake promises until the deadline lapses, so don’t let that happen.

The first thing to do once you know you have a problem is email the seller. Do this only through eBay, so eBay can see any email exchanged. Go to eBay’s webpage and log in under My eBay, and find the auction and Contact the seller through the eBay console. Give it a few days. If the seller doesn’t respond, pull the seller’s phone number from eBay and call them:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/buy/contact-member.html#requesting1
Confirm any conversation through eBay’s email system again.

If you’re not happy with how things are going to resolve the issue (and watch the deadline clock carefully), NOW open a dispute with Paypal. Normally, once you check the box that says you have tried to resolve your dispute with seller and wish to escalate and get a decision from Paypal, Paypal will make a decision on the dispute within one or two days.

Only after there is no successful redress given there should you consider doing a credit card chargeback. I also don’t recommend hassling your credit card company over a small amount such as $7.12. Eat those small losses and chalk them up to experience. You think it’s “the point of the thing?” Well the point of the thing is not to cost a bunch of other people a bunch of time (equals money) over petty disputes. Save your fire for the big ones.

A couple of other points. Some sellers add to their auction listings language such as, “If you don’t pay me extra for optional insurance, my responsibility ends when I ship.” BZZZZT! Sorry, Skippy, not as far as eBay and Paypal are concerned. Sellers are 100% responsible for getting the item to the buyer in the condition listed. There’s a saying on eBay: insurance is for the protection of the seller (not the buyer). Sellers who need to insure their items for damage should pay for it. They can ask the buyer to pay for insurance, but if the buyer passes and uses Paypal and pays by credit card, the seller normally carries the risk of shipping damage and loss. And insurance will normally not cover loss due to poorly packed items; in fact, that’s the first thing the carrier will check for to weasel out of paying off an insurance claim. Many amateur sellers pack fragile items carelessly–think hearing aids in a manila envelope. Sellers assume the risk when they do that, even if they pay for insurance.

Also, normally, if you win a Paypal dispute related to an item which is “significantly not as described,” you must return the item shipped to you to the seller before Paypal will return your money to you. This must often be done at your own expense, so be careful about buying heavy items where the cost of shipping may make a return prohibitive–certainly more true of refrigerators than of hearing aids. If you return an item in a Paypal dispute, you must pay for and obtain Delivery Confirmation, and when the item arrives, it had better come through that the delivery is confirmed. Otherwise you may not get your money back from Paypal.

@hamjor said:

If you are an eBay buyer and are unhappy with the quality of merchandise you receive (or you buy an item you don’t receive at all!), it’s important to pay careful attention to Paypal’s procedures and pursue your grievance Paypal’s way, at least at first. The credit card chargeback law is a great thing to fall back on, but it should not be your line of first defense. Paypal has been known to close accounts and ban Paypal customers who simply contact their credit card company and file a chargeback without going through Paypal first. (And this is not unreasonable, in my opinion. These chargeback claims cost Paypal more money than properly pursued disputes, so I don’t blame them for booting users who first complain to their credit card company.)

Sorry, I don’t believe this is true. PayPal doesn’t boot you for using rights given to you by State and Federal Law.

@hamjor said:

Be aware of that 45 day deadline. The clock starts the day you paid and not when the seller shipped or when you got the item. If you initiate a dispute 46 days after you paid, you’re going to lose your dispute with eBay on those grounds alone. Some sellers have been known to string buyers along with fake promises until the deadline lapses, so don’t let that happen.

Don’t waste your time with PayPal procedures. Some people know how to game the PayPal procedures. PayPal asked me to ship an item back to the seller. I did (at my cost). He refused shipment and it came back to me. PayPal closed the dispute in his favor. Arrrrgh!

@hamjor said:

Only after there is no successful redress given there should you consider doing a credit card chargeback. I also don’t recommend hassling your credit card company over a small amount such as $7.12. Eat those small losses and chalk them up to experience. You think it’s “the point of the thing?” Well the point of the thing is not to cost a bunch of other people a bunch of time (equals money) over petty disputes. Save your fire for the big ones…

Your credit card company doesn’t consider it a hassle to assist you with using your rights given to you by State and Federal Law. Ask them! Don’t worry about how small the amount. Small amount, large amount. There is no difference. There is no penalty. There is no downside. You don’t have to waste anyone’s time. Open an online account with your credit card company and file the disputes easily online. Seriously, don’t waste your time with PayPal procedures.

@hamjor said:

A couple of other points. Some sellers add to their auction listings language such as, “If you don’t pay me extra for optional insurance, my responsibility ends when I ship.” BZZZZT! Sorry, Skippy, not as far as eBay and Paypal are concerned. Sellers are 100% responsible for getting the item to the buyer in the condition listed. There’s a saying on eBay: insurance is for the protection of the seller (not the buyer). Sellers who need to insure their items for damage should pay for it. They can ask the buyer to pay for insurance, but if the buyer passes and uses Paypal and pays by credit card, the seller normally carries the risk of shipping damage and loss. And insurance will normally not cover loss due to poorly packed items; in fact, that’s the first thing will carrier will check for to weasel out of paying off an insurance claim. Many amateur sellers pack fragile items carelessly. They assume the risk when they do that, even if they pay for insurance.

Also, normally, if you win a Paypal dispute related to an item which is “significantly not as described,” you normally must return the item shipped to you to the seller before Paypal will return your money to you. This must often be done at your own expense, so be careful about buying heavy items where the cost of shipping may make a return prohibitive–certainly more true of refrigerators than of hearing aids. If you return an item in a Paypal dispute, you must pay for and obtain Delivery Confirmation, and when the item arrives, it had better come through that the delivery is confirmed. Otherwise you may not get your money back from Paypal.

I agree. This is good advice about insurance and stuff.

However…

The seller can always refuse shipment. Then what? With credit card chargeback rights (depending on the dispute reason) return shipment is not a prerequisite for getting a refund. I always use “NOT SATISFIED” as the dispute reason with American Express in order to avoid/eliminate the return shipment prerequisite. If it is a valuable item then I ship it back AFTER I received my refund

Do yourself a favor if you buy online. Learn how to use these rights given to you by State and Federal Law. The more you do it the easier it gets. Use the small amounts for practice, for example when you buy a $2 piece of non working junk from Hong Kong. Don’t even bother with return shipping because the seller doesn’t even ask for return shipping. He is just working the percentages betting most people will just forget about it.

We’ll have to respectfully agree to disagree on much of this then, as I still stand by what I posted as well, and it reflects my experience.

I recommend that anyone who wants to consider their options further before proceeding with an eBay dispute do so by searching and posting on eBay’s own support forums, as you will hear from others with extensive experience as buyers and/or sellers:
http://forums.ebay.com/db2/forum/Buyer-Central-Professional/10000000152

http://forums.ebay.com/db2/forum/Seller-Central/1432
As an example, here’s a thread that covers much of this material, including (see post #4 of 23) what happens (seller often loses, probably his item as well as the money) when he refuses to accept the return shipment that Paypal told the buyer to make, and Delivery Confilmation establishes that fact):
http://forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/Buyer-Central-Professional/Significantly-Not-As/1000413018&#msg10074963103
None of this works in every dispute, as pvc’s experience in that one particular return pvc made showed. As with court cases, eBay disputes and chargeback cases are partly a roll of the dice. If you lose with Paypal, and you used a credit card, you still have the right to pursue a chargeback and you will often (though not always) prevail. Starting with Paypal’s procedures does not reduce your chances of winning a chargeback.

We should do more than agree to disagree. We should try to clarify this issue so that the community has access to more information.

The clock is ticking for the time limits on both procedures because you also have time limitations on your credit card chargeback rights. I believe that limit is 60 days after the charge you are disputing first showed up on your credit card bill, and, I would argue that you would not want to jeopardize exceeding this time limit by wasting time with using the PayPal dispute procedures first.

I don’t understand your argument for trying the PayPal procedures first??? I honestly cannot see any benefit for trying PayPal procedures first. In your mind what is the benefit of trying PayPal procedures first? Perhaps you could explain the benefit more directly/clearly.

I don’t mean to offend you with this question. Do you work for PayPal or EBay?

No, I don’t and never did work for eBay, Paypal, a financial institution, or a credit card company, or even know anyone who has, except that I’m a longtime eBay seller and buyer and therefore frequent Paypal fee payer.

I doubt we’re going to come to an agreement on all of this. That’s not always possible; things aren’t always black/white right/wrong. There’s more than one road to Rome and more than one way to get an eBay dispute addressed. What worked in one dispute may fail in the next because there are many human variables, and these disputes get settled by many different people who don’t apply their own rules consistently. Plus, the rules themselves have loopholes and have been in constant flux over the past decade.

It’s like going to court. When you think you have it figured out well enough to predict an outcome, the next dispute proves you wrong.

I agree with you about the clock running, for eBay, Paypal, and credit card chargeback disputes. It’s essential to pay careful attention to the calendar, particularly with eBay/Paypal, whom I have never heard tell on the web making an exception to their deadlines–in fact, if I recall correctly, eBay no longer even gives a buyer access to the webpage to open a dispute on a particular purchase, once the deadline has passed. Sometimes a credit card company observes the deadline to request a chargeback strictly and sometimes uses discretion on it, so I’ve heard. It may depend on how important that company thinks it is to keep a particular customer happy or other considerations particular to that company at that time and outside the customer’s control. I wouldn’t count on it, though. If you want the right to pursue a chargeback and the deadline is near, request it now; don’t give them the option to close you out because you missed the deadline.

Why start with eBay and Paypal? My reading of the consensus judgment of frequent fliers on eBay’s support forums is that it’s worth trying first, and my own experience reflects that. Usually (NOT in every case), a buyer will get the benefit of the doubt and win a reasonable dispute, within a couple of days. Starting with eBay and Paypal for disputes also is part of their user agreements, which specify procedures for disputing transactions. Doing so and losing doesn’t generally reduce your chances of winning a credit card company chargeback later, as long as you’re careful about deadlines.

To me, a chargeback is an ace in the hole, to be tried when other more reasonable approaches have failed. Using it as your first option is like fishing by nuking a lake. It may work, but it’s overkill.

@hamjor said:

There’s more than one road to Rome and more than one way to get an eBay dispute addressed. What worked in one dispute may fail in the next because there are many human variables, and these disputes get settled by many different people who don’t apply their own rules consistently. Plus, the rules themselves have loopholes and have been in constant flux over the past decade.

It’s like going to court. When you think you have it figured out well enough to predict an outcome, the next dispute proves you wrong.

I completely agree with you. PayPal dispute resolution is very unpredictable for all the reasons you just described. On the other hand, with credit card chargeback rights, the results are very predictable. I have a 100% success record using credit card chargeback rights.

@hamjor said:

Why start with eBay and Paypal? My reading of the consensus judgment of frequent fliers on eBay’s support forums is that it’s worth trying first, and my own experience reflects that. Usually (NOT in every case), a buyer will get the benefit of the doubt and win a reasonable dispute, within a couple of days. Starting with eBay and Paypal for disputes also is part of their user agreements, which specify procedures for disputing transactions. Doing so and losing doesn’t generally reduce your chances of winning a credit card company chargeback later, as long as you’re careful about deadlines.

To me, a chargeback is an ace in the hole, to be tried when other more reasonable approaches have failed. Using it as your first option is like fishing by nuking a lake. It may work, but it’s overkill.

I should use PayPal dispute resolution because it is worth it? I should use PayPal dispute resolution because it is part of the PayPal user agreement? I should use PayPal dispute resolution because it a more reasonable approach? I should use PayPal dispute resolution because my actions are akin to nuking lakes in order to go fishing? That’s why?? Gimmea break. I was asking for a logical reason.

btw> I believe you about not working for PayPal. It’s just hard for me to understand why you support their procedures with such zeal. Also, welcome to the forums.

Anybody know where I can find an i-cube. hearingaidezperts refused to sell be i-cube until I show them my audiology certificates.

Anybody know where I can buy hi-pro for a good price?

Edited

When I search EBay for (USB Hi-Pro) I see some from Canada that says make an offer, and looking at the individual feedback one sold for $575. Funny thing, they all say used 2 weeks??

@pvc said:

When I search EBay for (USB Hi-Pro) I see some from Canada that says make an offer, and looking at the individual feedback one sold for $575. Funny thing, they all say used 2 weeks??

PVC , please guide me on how to buy an i-cube or a hi-pro with a good price.

@stream2525 said:

PVC , please guide me on how to buy an i-cube or a hi-pro with a good price.

That’s what I thought I was doing stream. :slight_smile:

Go back a couple of pages in this thread and read the posts. There is no set place to buy iCubes. They come and go. Search Google, EBay, and Craigslist often. Use Craiglook to search Craigslist nationwide. They usually cost about $400.

The Hi-Pro (or equivalent) is available on EBay. Search EBay for (USB Hi-Pro). The USB Hi-Pro price varies (usually between $600 or $700).

When you ask in these forums sometimes you will get help via email. Be prepared to protect yourself when buying online by using your credit card chargeback rights (if/when necessary).

I have a pair of Starkey Destiny 1200 ’s which I’d love to be able to tweak just a bit more. Trying to get into the audi is difficult at best and she’s older so doesn’t understand all the technology available. Has anyone been able to find Starkey programming software?

Once I downloaded and reviwed the Phonak software I was like - What - Get outta here. There’s so much you can do to improve the fitting.

Are you an audiologist or hearing aid specialist yourself? If not, you have absolutely no business programming your own hearing aids. People go to school and receive continuing education to learn how to do that correctly. I suppose you grind your own glasses lenses and mix your own viagra. Or are you just so cheap you think you can order hearing aids online and actually get your money’s worth? For Pete’s sake, go to a professional. Online hearing aid sales are unethical and actually illegal in many states. They prey on the cheap, the paranoid and the uneducated. Any more questions?

In reply to @DrEd

@DrEd - Was that a flame-bait by any chance? If so, looks like many will take it.

From where you come - do they have types of human around for fixing car, home plumbing…If and when they do stuff like this, they know the risks and own it. Keep your stinky nose out of other’s business.

Programming Hearing aids is not equivalent to Heart or Brain Surgery. In fact, if you read the posts, tons of people are smarter than you and I bet can fine tune their hearing aids much better than you.

Why do you believe that all Audi’s are equally good - some (like you) can be horrible too.
People may be inclined to program their own due to following reasons:

  1. Some people may not be good at expressing how the HA is behaving. Also Audi may not Comprehend it as such.
  2. Audi may want to see 10 customers a day - with limited attention. For person, this is a matter of quality of life, every minute of the day.
  3. Its fun and challenge to do cutting edge stuff yourself.
  4. Feels good to be in control of your conditions
  5. Some people may be living in remote areas
  6. Feels good to show thumbs to people like you
  7. Some areas may be filled with incompetent Audi's like you.
It's good to take pride in your profession - that's how you become better. But if you express your bitterness by posting your first message as flame - Dude : Something more sinister is screwed up in your life and you found online forums to vent your frustration. I feel sorry for you.

See if yoga can help. (tip - you can see it online and do it a home) :stuck_out_tongue:

In reply to @DrEd

@DrEd said:

Are you an audiologist or hearing aid specialist yourself? If not, you have absolutely no business programming your own hearing aids. People go to school and receive continuing education to learn how to do that correctly. I suppose you grind your own glasses lenses and mix your own viagra. Or are you just so cheap you think you can order hearing aids online and actually get your money’s worth? For Pete’s sake, go to a professional. Online hearing aid sales are unethical and actually illegal in many states. They prey on the cheap, the paranoid and the uneducated. Any more questions?

Do you think most audiologists or hearing aid dispensers are actually able to program hearing aids correctly? The answer is no, because most of them don’t perform real-ear measurements to verify the fitting. Don’t you think that is unethical?

DrEd
If I am able to procure the programming equipment to go with the aids the will soon provide (and the price is reasonable) I will get the equipment and do the tweaking. I have been adjusting my CPAP therapy for four years now and the adjustments and continuing monitoring have been poo pooed by the “pros” all along. You might have a degree in the specialty, but I have the senses on the symptoms and if I can do it I will.

Thanks for your concern

TerryB

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