New hearing aids signia or Oticon

@withoutwings said:

But - my Costco audi did accidentally link them before doing a DSL REM on General and the resultant Music mode was awful (but all the other DSL-based modes were fine). I flagged the obvious mistake, got it reset back to target, and all is well now as music sounds fantastic to me.

I guess the question here is whether there is value in linking the REM adjustments done from P1 to MyMusic/HifiMusic to reflect the acoustical shortfalls (that might have been caused by something like a large ear canal or whatever else it is) or not.

Obviously for @withoutwings , it’s a negative/undesired thing to him. I’m guessing that the formulation of the MyMusic rationale is way too different from the other speech-oriented or general-situation-oriented rationales (be them standard or proprietary) that the REM changes might have caused radical changes to MyMusic/HifiMusic, but not as radical changes to the other rationales.

In theory, doing REM on the music program like @Neville advocates, to make up for the acoustical abnormality that might exist in the whole acoustical system, makes sense in theory; although with the caviat that the music formula is not available on third party REM equipment, but only if it’s not too different than a more “normal speech-oriented” formula to begin with. But in practice, this differences between he formulas might be so far apart that it might negate the soundness of this theory.

It makes me wonder how best to address this dilemma? Perhaps do the link for P1 REM changes to MyMusic/HifiMusic, then add another pure/unadulterated MyMusic/HifiMusic in another program, then do A/B comparison between the 2 versions of the music program to see which one you like better, then stick to that version?

Just checked ZipHearing. Have you tried them? Do you have any experience with them?

@ggreenone Yes, I purchased my current Phonak L90s from them. No high pressure sales. They worked with a couple of audiologists in my area that I already knew about or in one case had used. I initially returned the first set of L90s (I acted too precipitously) to the audiologist and the refund was processed overnight. Absolutely recommend them based on my experience.

@Volusiano said:

But in practice, this differences between the formulas might be so far apart that it might negate the soundness of this theory.

Nooo. I know I said earlier that not all manufacturers succesfully account for audiometric changes, as you might expect, but when two programs are linked together and you’re making basic gain changes to one, you are making identical gain changes to the other. It’s just addition and subtraction, there’s nothing complicated going on and all the other features, kneepoints, compression ratios that are different from the one to the other remain different from one to the other.

So, you can see what’s going on between the two. Here’s an N3 audiogram, for NL2 versus MyMusic they are boosting the lows and decompressing. Relative to DSL, which is less compressed than NL2 already, they are boosting the lows and rolling off the highs.

This is just me playing around for visual examples, I don’t bring a REM machine home for the weekend, but Oticon thinks that their settings should look like this on REM:

You measure on the ear and it actually looks like this:

Physical issues will have static impacts across different programs. So you boost to get back to target (back to the picture of what Oticon expects it to look like), and then the gain in the software ends up looking like this:

But you can see the MyMusic program has not now become the NL2 program, etc.

What complicates it a little bit more is that this is an example of the hearing aids diverging from targets just due to individual physical ear/coupling issues. However, there are ways in which hearing aids systematically diverge from independent targets to smaller or greater degrees, so then when the clinician corrected that it would indeed be overshooting things on the MyMusic program.

At the end of the day, the right music program is the one the user likes. So if withoutwings likes the combination of first fit and whatever his own ear is doing to it, that’s great (and I missed whether he was listening or performing).

So if I understand aright…and I’m bad with following acronyms like NL2, which somehow makes me think of salt–if I understand aright: IF my audi performs an REM for my primary, non-music program, and makes adjustments to match what the aid is providing in terms of sound given the architecture of my ear canal…THEN, these adjustments will equally apply to my Musician program. Even given the radical differences in how these programs are set up. In other words, a Musician program will make appropriate adjustments to new REM results, by simply carrying over the new parameters established by the primary program’s REM results and adjustments. And those adjustments will be appropriate to the Musician program as well. Whew! correct? or not.
We all speak a different language, the technicians and the poets.

I can use the measured RECD to DIY off my audiogram and get closer to REM without REM versus the audiogram alone?

Only if they leave the ‘link’ symbol checked while adapting the #1 program. If they uncheck it the programs can be altered independently.

There is more than one link depending upon where one is within the software. Linked programs are different from left-right link.

Good heavens! this is why I don’t try to DIY, and admire those who do. Far too many unforseen and misunderstood aspects to try to master. Too much Frustration, for me anyway.
When I see my audi to get back my left aid, that’s out for repair,
Should I get an REM for the Musician Program, since this is how I primarily use my aids? That is, when I play guitar and listen to live music. Or will it not make any difference if I get the REM performed for my everyday program, and then apply those results to the musicians program. I’m a bit dense concerning technical matters.

The good thing is that you can ask your HCP to give you both, a music program that has been REM adjusted, and a music program that doesn’t have REM adjustment done on it yet. Then you can try out both of them and see which one you prefer, and stick to that one and delete the other one.

Or keep both if you find trade-offs within both that you want to use one or the other depending on the situation, or if you can’t decide. It’s really not all that gloomy where you are restricted without options to begin with.

I am trialing the Oticons. Asked to have zero compression for the music program. The Audi found the request strange but did it. Sounds better but still not what I was hoping for the music is slightly better. Speech in general is better with the Oticon than signia,may be programming itself. Any suggestions for another hearing aid to trial?

@dcmprshn said:

Asked to have zero compression for the music program. The Audi found the request strange but did it. Sounds better but still not what I was hoping for the music is slightly better.

Unlike some other aids’ brands, as far as I know, Oticon doesn’t give you an option to simply just turn off compression altogether with a single switch. You might have to manipulate the gain values in the Fine Tuning section to “try” to minimize compression, but not necessarily be able to set EVERYTHING to zero compression. If your HCP claimed that he/she did it, I’d like to know how.

@dcmprshn said:

the music is slightly better.

But not good enough, right?
The Oticom music program can’t be set up as you like, because Oticon created a custom fitting rationale for it which limits the amout of fine tuning available.
Best to create a custom program based on your general program, but with all the processing turned off.

Edit: Spelling

@Volusiano said:

You might have to manipulate the gain values in the Fine Tuning section to “try” to minimize compression, but not necessarily be able to set EVERYTHING to zero compression.

This is correct. The audi that claimed they “turned off” compression is likely mistaken. Maybe they turned off the neural suppression or sudden sound stabiliser, but as Volusiano says, the only way to “turn off” compression is to go to the Fine Tuning section and adjust all the relative gain levels to get zero compression across the entire frequency range. And it takes quite a long time because there is a lot of trial and error involved. It’s unlikely an audi could do this is a single session.

How do I know this? I did it myself with my Intents because I wanted zero compression on the MyMusic program. And when, after a lot of fiddling, I achieved this, I didn’t like it. So I have created my own compression settings within the MyMusic program that are gentler than the Oticon factory settings.