Can phone microphone be used instead of handsfree calling (HA mic) with Phonak hearing aids

This has been discussed before and there seems to be conflicting information. Can you switch the hearing aid microphone off and use the phone microphone while streaming a call to a Phonak hearing aid? If so which models and how is this done? My impression is that it can’t be done on Marvel, Paradise and Lumity models but maybe on Infinio? Thanks.

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DaveL

Canada (Toronto) YYZ

I have Paradise P90R’s, and they are set up so I tap to use the handsfree calling feature. However, it automatically uses the hearing aid microphone. I have issues with signal strength, and even volume.

I sometimes drop calls unintentionally.

I hope this helps…no I can’t select the phone microphone if I wish to use my hearing aids for handsfree calling.

z10user2

If there was conflicting information before then where? I don’t think there’s a way. At least with my KS10’s (Paradise). Target greys out the option to mute the mic during calls. Phone bluetooth settings can’t seem to either. It’s either on the call or not. I’m wondering if there’s an app to do this. (Android) Looked around a little with no luck.
But I’m no expert.

raylock1

New Jersey

In reply to @DaveL

Infinio is the same as the previous versions. Sorry, it can’t be done.

MDB AuthorCentral California

In reply to @z10user2

I took this to be a maybe:

Emile030

Audiogram

@jeffpa said:

calls using ha mic or phone

In Android it looks like this (as that is what you mean). You’ll find it in the settings, Connections, Bluetooth, paired devices list

In IOS probably search for hearing aids and then Bluetooth connections.

Bimodal_user

Poland

I am not sure if the choice between or smartphone microphones will be available after the firmware upgrade to enable Bluetooth LE audio.

z10user2

In reply to @MDB

Thanks for finding that. That’s what I have on my 2020 Samsung international version currently maxed on Android 12. If I toggle off that calls switch while on a call then the sound goes back to the phone. I don’t have audio device type.

Patpa

Not sure if this is the answer to your question but…
After I answer a call by tapping my ear on my Phonak Audeo Sphere, I can hit audio on my Iphone and can choice between
R-Phonak hearing aid, Speaker, or IPhone .

Bimodal_user

Poland

@Patpa, yes, but when someone selects “Speaker” or “iPhone,” will the streaming be stopped? We’re discussing maintaining streaming voice from another talker and stopping mics to capture our voice, yielding it to mics in the iPhone.

I replied in the original Sphere thread where I brought up the topic yesterday. An Internet search agrees the switch is possible for Android but not iOS. See my screenshots and results in the following post:

My Phonak Sphere Infinio I90 vs Lumity L90 Shootout
I’m pretty sure @MDB is right, and when I’ll have time, I’ll look for the older thread about being trapped in phone calls with using HA mics in noisy environments with iPhones. There may be an option for Android, but an Internet search gives results claiming none for iOS. In iOS, the HAs are classic Bluetooth devices and are recognized as the headset profile (that’s the label that appears under the EAR icon in Control Center when I’m on a phone call or streaming). Headsets are supposed to h…

Patpa

Still not sure I understand the question but….When I select “speaker” I no longer hear the callers voice in my ears, but from the phone. I guess I really don’t know how the caller is hearing my voice, but caller has never complained about the call. Hope this makes sense.

MDB AuthorCentral California

Phonak Marvel, Paradise and Lumity phones use the microphones in the hearing aids (rather than the phone microphone) when streaming phone calls. They call it “hands free”. It works fine in quiet situations but if the background is noisy it can pick up a lot of background noise. In these situations it would be nice to switch to the phone microphone and speak into it. From what I’m hearing that might be possible with Android phones, but not with iPhones.

Gilbert

Ontario

Phonak uses Handsfree Profile (HFP) and not Headset Profile for Bluetooth.
This means that the mics are always live.
I have found this annoying on Zoom meetings because I cannot mute my mic when I am not actually speaking. (Using the mute button in Zoom does nothing)

@Patpa Yes, you can change where your phone directs the audio. If you choose Phone then you activate the phone’s mic and earpiece in the usual way. I you choose HA’s then you go into Handsfree Mode with your HA speakers (receivers) and mics both live.

@Gilbert said:

Phonak uses Handsfree Profile (HFP) and not Headset Profile for Bluetooth.

That may be what Phonak calls it, but iOS reports it as a headset. I’ll add a screen capture or two from my iPhone to this post (eventually). Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck… Since the hearing aids are functionally like a headset, the name used seems like a fine distinction. The only thing that might make a difference is the use of different amplification scenarios depending on what device type is detected. iOS has the hearing aids, headset, and headphone profiles, but I did not detect much of a difference in the quality of recorded output in Voice Memo until I switched to the Car Stereo profile as reported in my linked post above.

Gilbert

Ontario

When setting up Phonak ’s in Target for streaming you have the option to attenuate or mute the mics. This includes streaming from a tablet, phone or music player.
However, once you start to make or receive a phone call Phonak puts you in Handsfree Protocol and enables the HA mics. In this mode,Target gives you the option to attenuate the mics but not to completely mute them.
As far as I know this applies to any phone. It certainly applies to my iPhone and my landline Gigaset phone with Bluetooth.

jack2

A very important observation: the microphone on our hearing aids performs significantly worse when handling phone calls compared to even the cheapest built-in microphone on a mobile phone. Both in noise reduction and clarity, it falls short.

Phonak hearing aids have consistently used classic Bluetooth to connect to mobile phones, which does have a big marketing advantage by attracting users who want to connect to any Bluetooth-enabled device, such as phones, computers, and transmitters. However, this setup has limitations. With both Android and Apple devices, when using classic Bluetooth for calls, the system does not allow hearing aids to use the phone’s built-in microphone during a call. (Using MFI or protocols would allow using the phone’s built-in microphone, but currently, all Phonak products only support classic Bluetooth.)

Because Phonak only supports classic Bluetooth, phone calls use the hearing aids’ speakers for listening and their microphone for speaking. While using the hearing aid speakers is the best solution for users with hearing loss, the microphone quality is so poor (a limitation of hearing aids in general, regardless of brand) that it can often cause the person on the other end to struggle to understand. This can be very frustrating, especially when the other party may not realize they’re speaking with a hearing aid user. If you’re someone who relies on stable phone call quality, what seems like a convenient hands-free feature can actually become a big headache. From a user’s perspective, though it may seem less convenient, using the phone’s microphone actually offers the most stable call quality.

Since the release of the Marvel hearing aids, Phonak has not provided a solution that uses the phone’s built-in microphone. You can refer to the following article: Phonak Marvel: Nobody can hear me on the phone

While Phonak has made some improvements in call audio quality in the Paradise and Lumity models, it’s still not up to standard for stable use. It doesn’t compare to a phone’s built-in microphone or even a cheap wired earphone microphone. I’ve also suggested to Phonak’s audiologists that they consider a software setting to allow the use of the phone’s microphone or even provide an accessory for stable audio capture (such as Jabra’s phone clip accessory, for example): Phone Clip+ - Jabra Enhance9

After five years, it seems Phonak hasn’t made much progress on this issue. Perhaps this flaw is not a priority for most Phonak users, and Phonak has instead focused its R&D efforts elsewhere.

Currently, the only potential solution may be if the new Sphere model supports LE audio, which might allow the phone’s built-in microphone to be used for calls.

Phonak’s products are excellent, but because of this flaw, I’m considering hearing aids from other major brands.

How does everyone else feel about Phonak’s performance on calls? Could it be that we overlook this flaw since we’re not on the other end of the call?

In reply to @Gilbert

Yes, I think my ignorance is showing. searches show that the Hearing Aid and Car Stereo device types probably both support HFP, A2DP, and AVRCP. I thought the difference between Hearing Aid and Car Stereo types might be that Hearing Aid only supports SBC encoding, whereas maybe Car Stereo is AAC-encoded. It’s said that AAC-encoded sound will sound louder with less noise because the higher bitrate and greater encoding efficiency lead to better sound. BUT Gemini says no Phonak hearing aid up through the Infinio line uses AAC encoding.

HFP, A2DP, AVRCP, HSP; List of Bluetooth Profiles (US) - MobilityArena
The list of Bluetooth profiles include HFP, A2DP, AVRCP, and HSP, but there are other Bluetooth profiles and protocols that define the capabilities of different devices.

ChatGPT claims to know the difference between the protocols/processing used in the Hearing AId and Car Stereo device types. Here’s what it says:

ChatGPT:

What is different about the Phonak Infinio device type Car Stereo as opposed to the Phonak Infinio Device type Hearing Aid for streaming?

ChatGPT said:

Searched 3 sites

“Phonak Infinio BT device type Car Stereo vs Hearing Aid streaming”
bing.com
4

forum.hearingtracker.com
](Phonak Infinio Sphere 90 review)

hearingtracker.com
](Phonak Unveils Groundbreaking Infinio Hearing Aids and AI-Powered Audéo Sphere Infinio1)

The Phonak Infinio Bluetooth devices, specifically the “Car Stereo” and “Hearing Aid” streaming modes, cater to different audio streaming environments to enhance user experience. When set to the “Car Stereo” device type, the hearing aid prioritizes audio as if it’s coming from a stereo system, offering richer bass and enhanced overall sound quality, which can make music and media sound fuller and more engaging. This setting emphasizes the dynamic range and might be more suited for environments with a lot of background noise or when high-quality sound is desired, such as listening to music while driving.

On the other hand, the “Hearing Aid” streaming mode focuses on clarity and intelligibility, particularly for speech. It emphasizes mid and high frequencies to make voices clearer, an ideal setting for phone calls or conversations in quieter environments. This device type is optimized for speech intelligibility rather than musical richness, so it might sound thinner but ensures speech remains clear and distinct.

Switching between these modes allows Infinio users to better adapt to different listening scenarios, maximizing either audio quality or speech clarity depending on the streaming needs. These settings are powered by Phonak’s advanced ERA chip, which manages sound quality and Bluetooth connectivity while also supporting DEEPSONIC AI processing for clearer speech in noisy settings

Whatever the explanation, using the Car Stereo device type for phone calls and media streaming sounds A LOT better to me than the Hearing Aid device type. The end result is that the Hearing Aid protocol sounds thinner, noisier, less dynamic range, less stereo separation or spatiality, whereas a podcast listened to with the Car Stereo protocol is like WOW!

Emile030

@jim_lewis said:

Phonak Infinio Bluetooth devices, specifically the “Car Stereo” and “Hearing Aid” streaming modes, cater to different audio streaming environments

@jim_lewis
Thanks for the further clarification you posted over here where it rather should be posted.

My Phonak Sphere Infinio I90 vs Lumity L90 Shootout
@jim_lewis Isn’t that because the Car Stereo device option uses the AutoSense OS (streaming) media speech + mic. So then you’re not in the Streaming Programs of Phone call+mic anymore? [IMG_1136]

In reply to @jim_lewis

I should note that my streaming setting in Target is Adaptive Bandwidth, not Fixed Bandwidth. Adaptive allows expanded bandwidth, when available. All my podcast observations were with downloaded content and my calling was done using high bandwidth Wi-Fi calling. None of the phone or media streaming was over a cellular data connection. Adaptive Bandwidth may allow me to max out on streaming audio quality with the Car Stereo device type classic connection setting on my iPhone 14 Pro Max running iOS 18.1.

Michael_Phonak