Phonak Target Software... Last try before I give up

Some people on this forum have illegally obtained the items needed, but that does not change the problem here.

FYI I have spoken to almost all the key manufacturers asking for permission to ship the fitting software to those of my clients who ask for it and who seem to have the skills to use it e.g. electronic engineers, acoustic specialists, software people and so on.

In all cases the answer has been NO … primarily due to the liability and insurance issues.

I do believe however that some highly qualified electronic engineers (not in the UK) have approached the manufacturer of their aids directly and have managed to obtain legal licenses for the appropriate fitting software on a ‘special case’ basis. I assume that they are believed sufficiently skilled technically to avoid invalidating the manufacturer’s insurance.

@portausb said:

4:HA manfacturers make huge profits, the cost of the electronics in a HA is litrally pennies.

5: Audiologists make large profits too, their mark up is 300-400%. I didn’t make this up my source is one dispenser, who said on his web site that he sells HA that others sell at £6000-£8000 for £2000 (he is still making I am sure a healthy profit), so this is from the horse’s mouth.

Not going to get involved in the shooting here, but;

4. Hearing aid components cannot be bought for pennies. Pre-production mics cost around $18 per matched pair and receivers are nearer $12 each. Due to the low fab runs of the integrated circuits, they can cost several tens of dollars. That’s before you line the inside with gold and press/form/mould/assemble the other bits. (Before R+D costs)

5.If an aid costs £1000 and I sell it for £2000, that is a 100% mark up - ZCT gave a good example of the costs of running, staffing and advertising a business n the Obscene profits thread. I have yet to meet somebody fitted with hearing aids over the £5000 mark. Most aid fitted by specsavers in the UK are under £2k per pair: how far do you think the industry can deviate from this model without being comparison shopped?

that option does not exist.

As a general rule I suspect that you are right.

You have a few possibilities here:

A: Start a campaign to get the situation changed

B: Take the grey market route

C: Work with your manufacturer on a one-off basis to obtain the software for a ‘special project’ or something.

I doubt that a manufacturer will ever release a full programming system to end users … but perhaps a reduced functionality version might appear one day, especially for the lower power and thus ‘safer’ models.

Such an approach should keep almost everyone happy … especially if mega techies were permitted to have the full version subject to some sort of disclaimer.

It doesn’t need to be a black-and-white religious issue … there can be a middle way.

The only problem is how can you persuade the manufacturers to expose themselves to this extra work and extra liability for what will be very few extra sales.

@EnglishDispenser said:

As a general rule I suspect that you are right.

You have a few possibilities here:

A: Start a campaign to get the situation changed

B: Take the grey market route

C: Work with your manufacturer on a one-off basis to obtain the software for a ‘special project’ or something.

I doubt that a manufacturer will ever release a full programming system to end users … but perhaps a reduced functionality version might appear one day, especially for the lower power and thus ‘safer’ models.

Such an approach should keep almost everyone happy … especially if mega techies were permitted to have the full version subject to some sort of disclaimer.

It doesn’t need to be a black-and-white religious issue … there can be a middle way.

The only problem is how can you persuade the manufacturers to expose themselves to this extra work and extra liability for what will be very few extra sales.

How much does a set of ladders cost in the US?

Duty of care? Acoustic neuroma?

@EnglishDispenser said:

Huh?

Interesting point. I thought about this quite a bit when I started my web-based hearing aid sales sites.

I came to the conclusion that the clients would be people who have no intention of visiting a doctor or audiologist. My clients would NOT be from my or your standard practice customer stream. So in fact my health questionnaire on the mail order web site would help INCREASE the chances of those with medical problems visiting their GP.

Also, I feel that if someone improves their hearing through a mail order purchase then that’s one more person with an improved standard of living. If that person has no intention of seeing an audi or doctor whether they buy a mail order product or not, then a hearing aid sale is still a ‘win’ overall EVEN if the client needs medical help.

A hard-of-hearing doctor-averse client with a health issue is in trouble.

A hard-of-hearing doctor-averse client with a health issue who is spurred into seeking medical advice by the mail order purchase process is a major win.

A hard-of-hearing doctor-averse client with a health issue who is NOT spurred into seeking medical advice by the mail order purchase process but who then improves their hearing is a minor win.

Non of the above is intuitively obvious - but I feel that it is correct.

What if your facilitating the hearing aid purchase allows them to mask their condition for longer than they would otherwise be able? Thinking in the light of the Michael Jackson case and medical ethics…

Distance selling of healthcare products and services is a huge minefield that I’m pretty sure my practice insurance does not cover. What if Mr. Jones de-tunes the low-frequencies of an aid he buys from your on-line business because he ‘likes’ the sound and then steps out in-front of a bus. If you turned the aids down in person: it’s potentially your fault, if he turns them down with the tools you provided, but didn’t adequately school him in the risks, is it necessarily misadventure?

USA Ladders cost more than double what they do here, simply because of the degree of liability cover required.

I know you like dealing with expensive Lawyers

Distance selling of healthcare products and services is a huge minefield that I’m pretty sure my practice insurance does not cover.

I obtained special - and rather expensive - insurance to cover my mail order sales.

Being a Registered Hearing Aid Dispenser did NOT permit me to obtain that insurance … BUT … being a Chartered Engineer did.

So I suspect that you & I are about the only dispensers in the UK who could obtain that insurance!

Maybe you should try setting up a mail order operation? You may have better success than I did!

@Um_bongo said:

What if your facilitating the hearing aid purchase allows them to mask their condition for longer than they would otherwise be able? Thinking in the light of the Michael Jackson case and medical ethics…

Distance selling of healthcare products and services is a huge minefield that I’m pretty sure my practice insurance does not cover. What if Mr. Jones de-tunes the low-frequencies of an aid he buys from your on-line business because he ‘likes’ the sound and then steps out in-front of a bus. If you turned the aids down in person: it’s potentially your fault, if he turns them down with the tools you provided, but didn’t adequately school him in the risks, is it necessarily misadventure?

USA Ladders cost more than double what they do here, simply because of the degree of liability cover required.

I know you like dealing with expensive Lawyers

Yippee! A “No win - no fee” bonanza!!!
‘My client was wearing hearing aids M’Lud’

I know you like dealing with expensive Lawyers

Yep. Several wins, one draw and one lost so far.

Too many people allow themselves to be bullied by businesses or individuals … but I fight back!

Hi all,

I’m lucky in that I actually think my audiologist is great. He takes his training seriously, listens to his clients and learns from their input to improve his knowledge and performance.

I’m definitely glad that to have worked with him on the initial set up of my hearing aids, and I want to continue working with him in the future.

That said, I also like the option of self-programming to tweak and adjust my aids to make them as good as possible. With my audi, I’m limited to the time I have with him and want to be respectful of both his time and experience by not pushing for every small tweak or experimental adjustment.

On my time, it’s completely different. I like that I can try things not only with the hearing aids themselves but also with the accessories (in my case primarily the iCom which I find to be especially finicky).

I’ll definitely be purchasing an iCube and working to get my hands on the Target software to be able to make these expensive instruments as closely matched to my needs as I can.

Chris

@cjw said:

I got fed up with my Audiologist not really knowing how the Phonak software worked. He didn’t even know about the sound samples, and the interactive adjustments that you can make using those.
I bought an iCube on eBay - possibly a Chinese knock off, though it looks very legitimate and certainly works OK.
I can now adjust my hearing and immediately see whether the adjustment has made a difference. As a result my hearing is immeasurably better.
The audiologists on here are perhaps right that certain of the setup requires their expert knowledge, and I am very careful not to go near any of the bits that I don’t understand. It seems to me that a cut down version of the iPFG software, and iCube capability built into the iCom would be a tremendous asset to Phonak.

That is what I am afraid of in buying hearing aids. How do you know if the Audiologist is qualified? I have been playing with computers since 1979 as a hobby and built a few. I have programed industrial machine and building automation equipment controls. You mean to tell me I can’t do the same with some hearing aids? But I’m not saying everyone could do this, but why price the hardware and software so d**m high?
When you are charging $3,000 for a product and can’t make it work and then charge for doing so?? Seems as if the HA industry needs a major overhaul. I really don’t mind paying for qualified people selling a decent product, but it seems when the country of origin on most of these high priced products is not USA but China or other overseas low cost manufacturers then someone is making lots and lots of money.

@ckm said:

Hi am new there,
I’ve a i-cube but dont have the software to download, would any of you can tell me where to get it from. My HA’s are Phonak Nadias V UP. Need to tweet it as I’ve move to Australia from UK. It’s not easy to find a good Audiologist in Oz to help out. Hope to hear back from you. cheers

Hi ckm,

If your Phonak Naida V UP’s are from the “Core” platform as opposed to the “Spice” platform then you do not require Target 2.0, if you got them from the NHS or bought them more than a year ago, then they are most defo “Core”! They will be clearly marked " Phonak Naida V UP S" if they are Spice! You cannot use Target with “Core” aids as it does not work with these, for this you require “iPFG 2.6b” which is available for download:D If they are “Spice”, PM me!

I hope this helps, Cheers Kev:D

I thought it was cruel to say that someone is foolish for wanting to learn to program their own hearing aids. Would you call a man foolish if he saved money by fixing his own car? Should I get a maid to clean my house? Anytime one can be independent it fosters feelings of confidence and accomplishment. One may have to spend a lot of time to learn how to do it, but the results would save money in the long run, and one would be more satisfied with the end result. Anything you want to do a tweak you could do it yourself without making an appointment and waiting around and or paying for that service. I have seen the software on ebay in the uk from (following the link here), so I assume one can get the software on ebay if one puts up an alert for the software. I use saved searches often on ebay. One could buy the icube. I assume one would also need a mac and not a pc. If you hung out with computer geeks like I do you, you will see the value in doing things for yourself instead of waiting for big corporations to make all your dreams come true.

Great idea!!
What next? DIY lobotomies? Teach yourself heart transplants?
I have had my fair share of incompetent audis but I still would not want to mess about with my hearing aids.

@pbs said:

Great idea!!
What next? DIY lobotomies? Teach yourself heart transplants?
I have had my fair share of incompetent audis but I still would not want to mess about with my hearing aids.

How in the world can you compare lobotomies and heart transplants to tweaking a HA?

You said “but I still would not want to mess about with my hearing aids.”

I can certainly appreciate that, but can you appreciate sami and many others including myself being interested in tweaking our own HA’s.

Can you point out any life threating disavantages of self programming? I fail to see any.

I’m sure there is a lot to learn about any fitting software and not everybody is comfortable tweaking their own aids, but that does not make the one’s that are comfortable tweaking their aids, foolish!