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Second thoughts on getting Phonak L90 - Reverberation

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Am I suffering from reverberation when in a large room with high ceilings.

I find I can’t hear them at all unless they are right next to me. It’s not like I’m hearing them but can’t work out what they are saying.

I’m literally not hearing them at all. Their mouths are moving but no sound, even tho there is sound.

Is this anything to do with Echo or Reverberation?

It’s not always possible to use my Roger set up.

I also won’t be able to return the L90 but feel they won’t actually allow me to hear any better.

I currently wear Phonak P70 and I also have Oticon Xceed 1 but haven’t really worn them since they don’t work with Roger and Bluetooth at the same time.

:arrow_down::arrow_down::arrow_down: Found this on Google :arrow_down::arrow_down::arrow_down:

Echo is formed in both open and closed spaces.
Reverberation occurs in closed spaces with multiple reflecting objects.
The echos can be used to calculate distance of the object. The distance of a reflecting object cannot be determined by the reverberation, since the travel time is too small.

6 people in this conversation12 min readJump to latest

Have your L90s checked out. They could be defective. That said, I also wear the L90s, and oddly, once in a while, if there is a BURST of loud noise, everything mutes down ridiculously, making speech, ambient sound, etc., wierdly muted.

I want my audi to look at the Dynamic Noise setting to see if it’s too aggressive. But what you describe about just seeing mouths moving and no comprehension is exactly what I experienced with the Oticon OPN years ago. The aids used an open-sound algorithm my brain simply couldn’t make sense with. That is not what I find with the Phonaks, so maybe there’s hope for you in just adjusting the Dynamic Noise setting or even setting up a separate “Comfort in Echo” program to enable?

If the problem occurs with Roger, it could be trial and error to find that “sweet spot” with audio level turned just right on BOTH aids and the Roger base. I’m still trying to find that spot, and find that I need to adjust it in every setting: restaurant, car, TV room at home, etc., It’s not just a one time set it and go.

I have a comfort in echo program in my p90s that do a fair job. Any chance your are going into something like speech in loud noise with tight focus to the front? Strange report.

WH

In reply to @WhiteHat

I don’t have Speech in Loud Noise on my . I had it but never used it so it was taken off.

I have the P70 now and am thinking of getting the L90 mainly for Comfort in Echo.

I can turn volume up all the way and there is a difference but it makes the voices so quiet still that I’m basically not hearing them still.

When my hearing was mixed, I got the volume I needed, now it’s only SN, I seem to lack the volume.

In reply to @1Bluejay

@1Bluejay said:

The aids used an open-sound algorithm my brain simply couldn’t make sense with. That is not what I find with the Phonaks, so maybe there’s hope for you in just adjusting the Dynamic Noise setting or even setting up a separate “Comfort in Echo” program to enable?

I have Oticon Xceed but I find the exact same issue with them as well.

On my Phonak, I have all features turned off.

My P70 doesn’t have Comfort in Echo now but that’s why I was thinking of getting the L90. The only feature I would want switched on would be EchoBlock.

I also experienced the same thing, Starkey, Phonak and others. I can’t hear in an echoing room, but I once used an Alpa 7 , and all that was resolved.

but it wasn’t long. I reset it, and all the capabilities were gone, until now I tried, but didn’t get the same thing

I’m a bit confused, it sounded almost like you were trialing them. (The L90s) I really hope they work for you.

The table on Audeo Paradise Features4 has a line near the top (3 down) that only shows 90 level having Speech in loud noise, but then 8 lines down it shows it for both 70 and 90…

So I dunno. Just pitching out ideas. Trial and error to find out what works, I guess.

WH

In reply to @Zebras

Hm. I can see that on the Phonak Features list there is no dedicated program per se for Comfort in Echo for the L70s … all the more reason to TRY the L90, I’m thinking? I had Comfort in Echo on my old Marvels even, but found that with the Lumity Life aids, their Noise Management software seems to help so much with echo that I don’t have a dedicated program for just that.

I DO find that some of these dedicated programs mute down all sounds across the board: speech, ambient, etc., and that’s my only irritation. I want to get SPEECH frequencies left alone, cuz if that could cut through echo, restaurant noise, wind, etc., life would be darn near perfect. :slightly_smiling_face:

@Zebras said:

Am I suffering from reverberation when in a large room with high ceilings.

I find I can’t hear them at all unless they are right next to me. It’s not like I’m hearing them but can’t work out what they are saying.

I’m literally not hearing them at all. Their mouths are moving but no sound, even tho there is sound.

Is this anything to do with Echo or Reverberation?

Are you having trouble in a large room with high ceilings when you use a program that does beam forming via directional microphones?

If yes, then it’s been established by audiology research papers that there are limitations to the success of directional microphones. The signal (in this case the speech source you’re trying to hear) has to be close enough to the listener (6 ft or less), the noise has to be on the sides or the back, and the room has to have minimal reverb.

It sounds like your situation is checking a couple of these boxes → no minimal reverb, speech source not close enough to you. Didn’t hear you mention what kind of noise you have and where they’re coming from. But if the noise is also coming from the front and not just the sides and the back, and the third box would be checked as well.

Another limitation is that directional modes tend to cause a low frequency roll-off that would be compensated by the system through amplification at the low ends, resulting in higher internal microphone static noise levels. With your heavy hearing loss, though, this static noise would be the least of your problem anyway.

Edited

In reply to @1Bluejay

@1Bluejay said:

all the more reason to TRY the L90, I’m thinking?

I do agree but I’m not sure I’m even struggling with Echo issue which is why I’m asking.

Sometimes I’m not even aware of what I’m hearing even when my hearing was better.

@Volusiano said:

Are you having trouble in a large room with high ceilings when you use a program that does beam forming via directional microphones?

With my Oticon Xceed I believe my P1 didn’t automatically go in to directional Altho I could be wrong.

My Phonak P70 use AutoSense which can change but the rate at which they change is set at the very minimum so takes a lot for it to change.

A while ago, checking DataLogging, it spend 96% in Calm.

@Volusiano said:

If yes, then it’s been established by audiology research papers that there are limitation to the success of directional microphones. The signal (in this case the speech source you’re trying to hear) has to be close enough to the listener (6 ft or less), the noise has to be on the sides or the back, and the room has to have minimal reverb.

This is interesting to know as I wasn’t aware.

@Volusiano said:

Didn’t hear you mention what kind of noise you have and where they’re coming from.

No background noise at all apart from the odd noise coming from knocking of the chair but very rarely.

@WhiteHat
@1Bluejay

I did speak to a very experienced audiologist who’s helped me loads over the years.

He said it sounds like my and Gain numbers are too close together. I’m pretty sure MPO is at max Altho not 100% sure.

Should add, that’s why he feels I hear things as extremely muted as well.

@Zebras said:

He said it sounds like my MPO and Gain numbers are too close together. I’m pretty sure MPO is at max Altho not 100% sure.

GEEZ. That could be the “ceiling” you’re hitting: maximum power output vs gain. I’m sure I have the same issue, and have never asked my audi what those register.

But I will definitely ask about the sound being VERY MUTED. Last night, I was able to stream audio from a movie to both ears the ENTIRE night (no idea why right aid didn’t blank out), but several times during the movie, it seemed my aids just BLEW UP - hard to describe the sensation, but it was as if someone had encased my head in a bubble, and ALL sound from any direction or source was like coming through a very thick blanket. It was like being in a gaseous cloud of muted sound if that makes sense?

If I held my breath and just waited, normal streaming sound returned in under 1.5 min or so. VERRRRY strange. I’d experienced the same phenomenom with the Phonak Paradise aids I had just 3 weeks or so in August '22. Everything was groovy until hubs and I got in a rental car. The minute he shut the door, ALL sound uniformly muted into the same kind of gaseous, distant - VERY distant - sound. I opened a door, and voila! It was like a pressure cap was released and normal sound returned. Maybe the Noise Management (is that the same as Dynamic Noise?) was defective or needed turning down.

But the aids I’ve been wearing just over a year have never had that same kind of Noise Management issue SO BAD. I had several episodes of that during the movie, and for the past week or so, it’s happened in other locations/situations.

These rechargeable aids seem VERY unstable and fraught with odd things going on. My rock-steady Marvels never gave me grief when it came to streaming. They just didn’t deliver on speech comprehension like these Lumity Life aids. It’s a total puzzle, but I’ll ask my audi tomorrow about the Dynamic Noise situation and maybe even leave one pair of aids to go back into the shop for diagnosis.

I’m not wearing my other pair of Lumity Life aids these days cuz it’s just too annoying to remove them every night for TV viewing as they won’t have the Roger license installed till tomorrow.

@1Bluejay

Do you have ear moulds or domes?

If no ear moulds then you won’t have the 105 receivers as they only work in ear moulds.

Pretty sure it gives you the receiver strength on the receiver to look at.

I definitely wear the soft, smoke topaz colored domes pictured here (which I buy at Amazon):

Phonak dome

I’m allergic to any custom mold material except that flesh-colored plastic. But even then, the rigidity of the material doesn’t work cuz my ear canals swell UP every night, then diminish during the day. Even my feet aren’t so problematic.

You’ll be wearing the P receiver then which goes to 90 only. Last two frequencies go to 100 dB.

@1Bluejay

Highly likely your Gain and are close together as well as you’re pushing close to the limit of the P receiver.

Are you allergic to hypoallergenic ear moulds as well?

Have you used the Comfort in Echo and found it helpful? Curious as it looks like you have the same issue as me which things sounding muted.

In reply to @1Bluejay

@1Bluejay said:

it seemed my aids just BLEW UP - hard to describe the sensation, but it was as if someone had encased my head in a bubble, and ALL sound from any direction or source was like coming through a very thick blanket. It was like being in a gaseous cloud of muted sound if that makes sense?

I get this. I’ve been told it’s because things sound very muted when I asked the hospital.

I also get this when cars go past me. I feel pressure but can barely hear the cars. I would describe it as a thick blanket.

Interesting thread here. Sounds to me like there’s a lot of “what’s not good about Autosense” going on.

@Zebras Basic question, what’s the meaning of the acronym “”, referring to your comments regading MPO and gain?

Personally, one of my most testing scenarios are meetings in an echoey room.

I’ve found that since I’ve bought my (well programmed) P90s, I’ve tried my Roger On and recently purchased Roger Select which help, but the stand alone “Comfort in Echo” is slightly better. I have to say that my Roger devices are more useful with my self programmed M70s.

@bluejay 's comment on using Roger devices is so true. Balancing the Roger device with the ’s mics, is vital, otherwise you miss what you sometimes need to hear.

I’ve removed Autosense as the default/startup programme, as I’ve not found it makes the right decisions for me.

Peter H

In reply to @Zebras

@Zebras said:

Are you allergic to hypoallergenic ear moulds as well?

VERY VERY allergic to the so-called “hypoallergenic” ear molds. The last time I had custom hypoallergenic molds made was way back in 2005. They had the pinkish tint to them, but were made of very hard acrylic. Within hours, my ear cups and canals were flaming red, swollen and itched and burned like hellfire.

So, I did find Comfort in Echo useful on the old Marvels cuz I live in a very reverb-y, echoey house. The Lumity Life Autosense seems to adjust for that and diminish it to a tolerable level. If I have a house full of guests, I’d need to try Speech in Loud Noise, cuz I no longer have a dedicated program for Comfort in Echo.

But then … that diminishes the sound SO much it’s almost impossible to get that dedicated program to fit the noisy places I need it working in.

Tonight, I’ll try the Roger V2 again - swapped in a MUCH longer cable to the Marantz receiver in the wizard’s closet. It seems the physically farther ANY kind of streamer is from that closet the more stable the streaming. We’ll see!

In reply to @Zebras

@Zebras said:

I also get this when cars go past me.

I used to get the same sensation with the older Phonak Audeo B-Direct or Oticon OPN - it was years ago, but that happened with cars passing by on the freeway.

It’s that odd sensation of pressure that’s so noticeable. I don’t get how a pair of aids can create that sensation with soundwaves, and yet that’s what I had going on many times watching TV last night.

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