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Is Phonak mollycoddling me? :-)

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I recently tried Oticon Intent 1 aids for 10 days and now I’m doing a trial of Phonak I90 Spheres. The initial fitting of the Spheres was much more comfortable than that of the Intents, which were very harsh in the highs. I asked the audiologist who fitted the Phonaks how there could be such a huge difference like that since both audis were using the same . He said that Phonak uses a lot of pitch shifting in their programs rather than present the ear with lots of high frequencies, which is what Oticon does apparently. My high freqency loss is pretty bad, so my question is should I just go with what’s comfortable (pitch-shifting Spheres) or should I try to get acclimatized to the powerful highs of Oticon in the hopes of regaining some [not very] highs?

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In reply to @OcramSagev

It is also known as , which is a technology that takes high frequencies and moves them to lower frequencies where they have a better chance of being heard by people like me. It works better than I thought it would on live music, but I can hear subtle artifacts when playing the organ.

How does 10 days compare to a normal acclimation duration? I feel like I got used to my Option More 2 in less time than that, but my loss is not as profound as yours.

I know Oticon also has an acclimation setting to ease you in. Would it be possible to try the Oticon’s with that enabled?

Otherwise, I’d suggest to be comfortable.

In reply to @sepp

I’ve heard frequency shifting, , soundrecover2 (Phonak), audibility extender (widex), bandwidth compression (Rexton), speech rescue (Oticon) but never the word pitch . Thanks for explaining. Now the OP question makes total sense to me.

Edited

Both Phonak and Oticon have algorithms so , if I’m reading this correctly, the audiologist enabled the frequency lowering ( SoundRecover2) on the phonaks but not on the Oticon (Speech Rescue ).

In my humble opinion , making the highs audible requires a lot of power and tight seal without the frequency lowering (in your case).

I think the thing here is: which one allows you to understand to hear better the p, h, g, k, the , f , s and hence, understand speech better . Some people (including me) think the s and sh sound the same with the frequency lowering plus the sound using frequency lowering simply sounded too flat to me , in particular environmental sounds and music.

I’m interested what others with experience with this have to say. It’s an interesting question.

My audiologist , being lazy, did an in-situ test and used the default Phonak settings (which included frequency lowering/soundrecover2 ) and sent me home . It sounded horrible! When i complained , she said “you will get used to it” . After that, I got rid of it of the SoundRecover2 and cranked up the highs and I love being able to hear my high frequency sounds. That said , my high frequency loss is not even close to yours.

In reply to @bpeckham

Good to know that Oticon can acclimatize customers with automatic boosts in gain over time. I know Phonak has that capability, but there wouldn’t be any point to it if the patient feels comfortable from the start, like many apparently do.

I think it would be hard to say what a normal acclimatization duration would be. When I was fitted with Oticon OPN S1s the highs were somewhat brittle, but after 5 or 6 months I didn’t notice it anymore.

In reply to @OcramSagev

Very interesting. I have an appointment tomorrow and I’m going to ask to have SoundRecover removed from a copy of the Sphere’s music program as an experiment.

As far as speech is concerned, I just now realized I can hear an “s” better than I’ve been able to in a while. But word recognition is still a big challenge in many situations.

In reply to @sepp

I play trumpet and the high frequency pitch shifting really messes up my tuning as the overtones don’t line up. My audiologist created a program that turns all that stuff off just for live performance, it has worked well for me. YMMV

Edited

It doesn’t matter what the initial manufacturer fit does or doesn’t give you if the clinician then fits you to prescriptive targets using .

And no, assuming an average ear, in my experience the intent does not provide more highs on initial set up than the infinios. But the domes could fit differently in your ears leading to different gain responses. But there’s an easy way for your provider to check…

The Phonak Target software automatically enables SoundRecover according to its interpretation of your . The OP would have had it enabled by default.

On the other hand, Oticon Genie software does not automatically enable Speech Rescue. The OP would have had it disabled by default.

Also note that when Oticon Speech Rescue is enabled, the highs can either be retained or not depending on your preference.

Finally, the two company’s methods of lowering the high frequencies are completely different and people have reported their preference for one or the other.

In reply to @sepp

I had my audiologist disable Sound Recover 2 on my music programs, and it made a significant improvement. You don’t want frequency shifting for music.

I had the Phonak Bolero next to top of the line in that series for over 6 years. I enjoy listening to my somewhat high end audio system. I have high frequency loss and slight shelving loss with that over 4000hz. I had 3 audiologists over the years who chased the end of the rainbow and never succeeded in getting them to sound natural sounding always hard and digital not warm and analogue. I went thru audio gear over and over never getting to what sounded real again. I came close many times to sell my gear and quit listening to music. So now its time for new aids. I went to my audiologist who recommend Resound Vivia 9s. I watched the videos of Dr. Cliff and others plus read any reviews online. My audiologist set the 9s up and used the Hearing in Ear equipment and out the door I went. I got in my car and on the way home the radio sounded much better. I came home and spent 2 weeks listening and was happy BUT the thought of trying the Phonak Spheres was always in my mind. As a doubting Thomass I just had to know. So back I go and she was happy to set up a pair of loaners. Back in the car same radio station and they sounded just like my old Phonaks. I got home cut on my system and listened and tried every combination on the app just to experiment. I could not wait for the 10 days to my next appt. Back I went and gladly picked up my Vivia 9s plus they are smaller and just work for me for what I want music to sound like and for 1000.00 less (I would have paid the difference if they were better) plus an extra year on warranty and office visits. So my 2 cents worth and as always your mileage may vary. Like trying on shoes as no 2 people hear the same or have the exact same hearing loss. But as for me I am a happy camper.

My experiences with these two aids

I bought the Oticon Intent. I also have big issues with high frequencies. I found the hearing to be very good. However, they had a fault. After a few months the on ear volume control would stop working. At the same time I stopped being able to stream TV through the Oticon device or use the T function. The two issues seem to be linked (to me). They went back for repair to Oticon but only lasted 3 days before the fault re occurred. I replaced them with the Phonak aura sphere. These have been a major problem. In noisy environments they seem to reduce speech while still allowing background noise. The problem is getting worse; it is as though the or whatever is working in reverse. I have an appointment with the audiologist tomorrow but a search o Google shows that others have the same issue. I cannot use them at all now. Ironically, they stream from the Phonak TV streamer very well. I need the Oticon to har and the Phak to stream but that is not realistic. However, on the Phonaks, the bluetooth is also very intermittent, so listening to music or an audiobook is a problem. I am severely sight impaired so these functions are essential for me. Both aids have serious problems for me. I wonder what others have experienced? While not streaming TV I use Oticon Play provided by the NHS. The are very good for NHS aids but do to have the high frequency of the Intents.

sepp I see from the comments that the big difference was the speech rescue was not used with the Oticon’s and was with the Phonak’s. I have thoughts about that but need to keep it professional. My question is are you fit with molds as well, I am assuming no as your doing trials? For your hearing loss anything less is not going to give you the clarity of the high frequencies and and though automatic if you can handle the sharpness by letting it auto adjust you will do better in all situations unless there is distortion from your damage in the high frequencies. Just my 2 cents

As others are noting here, pitch-shifting can do terrible things to music. Been there! So, if ever I build enough budget, I shall try Widex because if I understand correctly they recently created a new approach where tones are shifted down by musically recognised intervals - to avoid those ghastly discords. Apparently they can even shift by a whole octave, which musicians may find okay.

@ellisonvoice said:

tones are shifted down by musically recognised intervals - to avoid those ghastly discords

I have Widex and I am very familiar with the programming software – and I’ve never seen this new approach. Is this a new hardware feature of the Allure that allows this to work automatically?

It would be great if you could share the source of this info, I would like to learn more about it

In reply to @ellisonvoice

According to a test I did at an organ, the Phonak Spheres tried to lower a “high” frequency by one octave. While holding down a key sounding at 1480 hz I pressed the key one octave above, which, at 2960 hz, is out of my hearing range. :frowning: What I heard was a second tone pitched slightly higher than the 1480 hz organ pipe. It was soft, but loud enough to cause wild beating between the two frequencies. Even if the 2960 hz pipe had been shifted down exactly one octave it would have still been too soft to be of any real use. I had my audi turn off SoundRecover in the Music program.

I suspect it would be of more use in Speech programs if the knee point were lowered about 500 hz. If I understand it correctly, “knee point” is the frequency at which kicks in.

In reply to @Dr_Palmer

I’m using power domes for the trial. I’ve been wanting to go to ear molds for some time because domes just don’t stay put. But what you say about highs is an even better reason to make the switch. Thanks!

In reply to @OcramSagev

Hello Ocram,

Sorry not in possession of the octave-shift scientific paper, but the info was from that great musician/scientist/audiologist Dr Marshall Chasin, reported around April 2024 here on Hearing Tracker.

He’s written two books about hearing and music

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