@corona said:

This is really distressing, and indicative of why I want to try to set up my own aids. If the audi doesn’t know the software, it means, one, she doesn’t know the instrument’s capabilities; two, she doesn’t know how to make those capabilities actually function; and three, she isn’t up-to-date on the technology and its interaction with audiology. Why spend umpteen thousand dollars on sophisticated hearing aids if the person you depend on can’t make them work without calling tech support? You could do that yourself, in theory.

This is like being some kind of supposed expert on an area of IT without knowing how to use the software.

Sorry to be harsh but the audiology business is a mess.

For an ‘Expert’ to have to call the manufacturer to set up the product correctly is disgusting. The person on the other end of the phone knows nothing about the patient - the guy who is paying bug bucks for the product. You might have good support in the US but from my personal experience Phonak support leaves a lot to be desired here in France. My first audi spent 2 months fiddling around before she called finally called Phonak, then she fiddled a bit more that just made them worse! They worked best when she first gave them to me and they went downhill from there!
I am now trying Widex Clear 440 Fusion - different audi - worked first time apart from a bit of wind noise which was soon corrected. They are not quite as good at finding the direction of the sound as the Phonaks - before she started fiddling so my new audi has ordered another set of Phonak S Smart IXs to see if he can do better with them. If this guy can set them up properly then it will clearly point out the deficiencies in some audis and/or the over complexity of the Phonak set-up. Watch this space!!

I got fed up with my Audiologist not really knowing how the Phonak software worked. He didn’t even know about the sound samples, and the interactive adjustments that you can make using those.
I bought an iCube on eBay - possibly a Chinese knock off, though it looks very legitimate and certainly works OK.
I can now adjust my hearing and immediately see whether the adjustment has made a difference. As a result my hearing is immeasurably better.
The audiologists on here are perhaps right that certain of the setup requires their expert knowledge, and I am very careful not to go near any of the bits that I don’t understand. It seems to me that a cut down version of the iPFG software, and iCube capability built into the iCom would be a tremendous asset to Phonak.

I hope someone from Phonak reads these posts. These are expensive pieces of kit that Phonak are pushing out via audis that really don’t seem to understand the product. In the end it is the customer who either wastes his/her time in useless trials or gets stuck with a purchase of a product that is incorrectly set-up.
I wasted 3 months on a Smart IX trial that got worse everytime my audi made an adjustment. She had no idea how the Target software worked.

Having spent a fortune on Phonak HA (spice platform), and nearly a year back and forth. I bought a HiPro and cables, spending another small fortune (waiting for arrival of those), I am extremely p***off as I cannot get the Target software for love or money.

This industry is a terrible closed shop.

The excuse used that we are idiots who will ruin our hearing aids, ears, and health and may be our neighbours health and wealth too, is such a damn rubbish.

How many of us would buy a car and accept that he cannot do work on it if he wished?

Which is more dangerous to crash your car for example if you fit your own brakes badly, or tune your hearing aid badly or even b*****r it completely?

I have used, programmed, modified, built my own, and even published computers projects since before IBM made the first personal computer available, (1979 to be exact), but it seems I am not competent enough to fine tune my own HA.

If anyone knows how one could get a copy of Target ( I hesitate to say by fair means or foul), please, pm me

Lack of logic

but

yes I can reprogram some aspects of the ECU in my car, and this is all we are asking “some aspects” or in other words to be able to FINE TUNE our aids.

As to the pacemaker, if you think you can get away with such a silly analogy, you picked the wrong person to argue with, hearing aids and pacemakers are as similar as choke and cheese in terms of possible hazards to misuse, and Audiologists to Cardiologists are just as (dis)similar , I should know I am as it happened a doctor.

I do not wish to enter into discussion with someone who has a clear vested interest in the continuation of a situation that, blatently, is pure commercial exploitation.

I have no doubt that your attitude would not have been the same had you remained in your previous occupation,( IT you said in another thread), and experienced this as a consumer.

With your background would you have been content to let someone who is obviously less kowledgeable or competent than yourself continue to take charge of a matter concerning you so closely and directly on a personal level for no reason other than commercial interests?

What does TOTALLY INVALIDATE your spurious arguments is the fact that some hearing aid manufacturers do provide their software for download.

Phonak themselves still have on their website links for downloading IPFG.

End of discussion with you.

@EnglishDispenser said:

<SIGH>

So you can reprogram the ECU of your car can you?

Or the processor in your pacemaker?

Or the chips in your central heating?

Or your electric toothbrush microchip?

Only a tiny minority of customers would want to do any of these things - and yet the manufacturer would have to supply software tools, manuals, support lines and the like for this relatively small number of people.

On top of this the bill for liability insurance would be horrific.

Also, it’s hard enough hiring top people in a high tech company without having to add more of these rare & expensive staff to support - err - tinkerers.

If YOU ran a business making, say, microwave ovens would YOU or your shareholders support modifications to the product by users?

You might sell a few more units a year … but you would also end up with HUGE costs & liabilities.

Do you think that would be a sensible move?

Sure, some hearing aid users could be able to fine tune their aids … and some more would incorrectly believe they had these skills … but why would any commercial organisation invest huge sums to add a few more sales?

@EnglishDispenser said:

<sigh>
</sigh>
So you can reprogram the ECU of your car can you?

Or the processor in your pacemaker?

Or the chips in your central heating?

Or your electric toothbrush microchip?

Only a tiny minority of customers would want to do any of these things - and yet the manufacturer would have to supply software tools, manuals, support lines and the like for this relatively small number of people.

On top of this the bill for liability insurance would be horrific.

Also, it’s hard enough hiring top people in a high tech company without having to add more of these rare & expensive staff to support - err - tinkerers.

If YOU ran a business making, say, microwave ovens would YOU or your shareholders support modifications to the product by users?

You might sell a few more units a year … but you would also end up with HUGE costs & liabilities.

Do you think that would be a sensible move?

Sure, some hearing aid users could be able to fine tune their aids … and some more would incorrectly believe they had these skills … but why would any commercial organisation invest huge sums to add a few more sales?

I agree with your sentiments entirely - only a fool would try to mess with the product without having knowledge of the design etc. However, it is easy to see how the idea of doing your own programming comes about when you see how many posts are reporting that their audis are simply not skilled enough to do the job properly. This seems particularly true with the Phonak Spice devices - as I know from my own prolonged dealings with two different audis!!

In truth you could train monkeys to program a phonak Spice aid with Target, god only knows why the Pro’s can’t get it right?.. A tadge harsh on the Pro’s perhaps, but if some of the comments on here are indicative of the hearing industry as a whole, then the monkeys might perhaps do a better job??? This is not rocket science guys and girls, don’t let some of the Pro’s on here pull the wool over your eyes, if you have some computer savvy, then self programing is for you!

Cheers Kev:D

@portausb said:

Thank you Kevels55

This coming from first hand experience.

There is no doubt that there are those who want to protect their “turf” at any price, blowing smoke screens in the process.

=====

In medicine we have accepted long time ago to stop “nannying” people. There is no better person to take control than the patient.

I will give a few examples from the simple to the extreme.

If you are diabetic needing Insulin. You will be trained to measure your dose and to inject it yourself. Furthermore you will be given a Glucose test meter and instructed on how to take a sample of your blood, test it, then calculate your dose and inject it upto several times a day.

Does that seem too simple in comparison with fine tuning a hearing aid?

If you think so then let me give you another example.

If you suffer from renal (kidney) failure, awaiting transplant or it is not possible to operate for some reason. You will undergo renal dialysis.

As this may be long term, you and a carer or carers (husband, wife, brother…etc) will be trained to use a home dialysis machine.

Now this is a very sophisticted and complicated machine as you may imagine or already know.

For those who may not know, dialysis involves passing the blood through the machine for some hours to be purified of waste products that normally the body gets rid of in urine.

The machine has to be obviously operated correctly and constantly monitored, and simple remedial steps taken in case of non too serious problems (rather than shut it down and scream for help).

You have to be aware that as this involves passing blood from an artrey (through a previously performed shunt), through the machine and back to the body into a vein (again prepared during the shunt surgery).

You will no doubt know, or logically conclude, how many risks are involved here, from a disconnection causing a serious bleeding (taking in account that you will have had -Heparin- an anti coagulant to stop the blood clotting in the machine, and therefore it will not clot in case of bleed either), to the ingerssion of any bubbles of air into the system which can kill you (air embolism).

I am not going to go through the many other possible problems, I think you must have (if you do not know already) got the picture.

Now how does tuning a hearing aid compare to home dialysis?

Enough said?

Good examples BUT, that doesn’t mean that it would not be safer if done by a professional! In the two cases that you have described, the shear volume of such cases calls for a judgement to be made concerning self care.
As I said earlier, I can clearly understand the urge for a DIY approach in light of the many, many complaints of audi incompetence or lack of training but again, I would lay this at the door of the manufacturers. Either ensure that the entire delivery chain is fully cognisant of the product as it applies to the end user OR, make the product much simpler.
In the rush to market many products are hitting the end user long before the sales/distribution network are up to speed. Many products are way over complicated in an attempt to either make a ‘one size fits all’ or just to outdo the competition.
Back in the 60s, many European car makers we trying to get into the US market. Only VW succeeded because only VW insisted on putting the support network firmly in place BEFORE they sold the first car. Maybe the HA industry should take a leaf out of VW’s book!!
Further on the point of DIY programming, I wonder what happens to the warranty when the end user starts fiddling with the device?? Worth thinking about!!!

A few points:

• DIY programming of hearing aids is not a religion, cult or political movement. It’s not even impossible … you can already buy aids complete with fitting software and cables.

• Most hearing aid users will not want DIY solutions for their hearing loss.

• The standard manufacturers have no financial reason to hugely increase their costs in order to support a handful of DIY clients. Niche manufacturers however can support DIY users.

• As in all industries, a few audis are not exactly perfect - but most are adequate, and some are even quiet capable.

• There is no mega conspiracy between audis and manufacturers to keep prices high etc. The hearing aid market is like any other : subject to market forces. You can get expensive suppliers, discount suppliers … even possibly illegal grey-market foreign suppliers.

If you want a DIY self programming solution, you can certainly find one - but it’s not fair on the majority of prospective users to act as if that the DIY approach is ‘The One True Way’.

It’s also not fair to make out that most audis and most manufacturers are ‘The Spawn Of The Devil’.

All these arguments about the perceived ‘evils’ of the industry certainly won’t help casual visitors to this web site.

@EnglishDispenser said:

A few points:

• DIY programming of hearing aids is not a religion, cult or political movement. It’s not even impossible … you can already buy aids complete with fitting software and cables.

• Most hearing aid users will not want DIY solutions for their hearing loss.

• The standard manufacturers have no financial reason to hugely increase their costs in order to support a handful of DIY clients. Niche manufacturers however can support DIY users.

• As in all industries, a few audis are not exactly perfect - but most are adequate, and some are even quiet capable.

• There is no mega conspiracy between audis and manufacturers to keep prices high etc. The hearing aid market is like any other : subject to market forces. You can get expensive suppliers, discount suppliers … even possibly illegal grey-market foreign suppliers.

If you want a DIY self programming solution, you can certainly find one - but it’s not fair on the majority of prospective users to act as if that the DIY approach is ‘The One True Way’.

It’s also not fair to make out that most audis and most manufacturers are ‘The Spawn Of The Devil’.

All these arguments about the perceived ‘evils’ of the industry certainly won’t help casual visitors to this web site.

No, but it might wake up some audis to either get fully trained or limit their sales to kit that they have had full training. At the end of the day, why should the end user - already paying a high price - have to be further messed about by audis that are trying to make a fast buck on a product they know little about?
If you buy, say a Phonak product, you are buying the skills of the engineer who designed it, the manufacturing department who built it, AND the skills of the audi that has the knowledge to adapt the product to your specific needs. To make sure that this chain is complete lies firmly at the door of the manufacturer!!

@ kevels55

thank you

@pbs

thanks for the link

I was amazed to find that the person who said all that (i.e. offering self programming and revealing the extent of profits), on his website(s), when it suited his purpose in advertising, was non other than the same person who is vehemently against it here.

Huh? This has suddenly got a bit personal.

I am NOT vehemently against self programming, otherwise I wouldn’t have tried to sell such solutions in the UK … but I don’t believe that it is the most important topic I have ever encountered.

I certainly doubt that it’s the key solution for the world’s hard of hearing.

Self programming, OTC sales and the like all have a place in the market … BUT … only as a niche.

My objection to many of the various posts here is that DIY and OTC solutions are NOT going to be of use to 95%+ of HOH who are seeking hearing aid solutions, so it’s not really fair to ‘push’ the DIY & OTC options so strongly.

As for prices, I’m not sure why I’m being attacked for having prices some 25% of what some dispensers in the UK can charge.

(To be fair to some of my more expensive colleagues, they may have much higher overheads etc than my practice)

By the way, whilst we are in the mood for mentioning weblinks take a look at www.fairhearing.net56 … that’s me too.

@EnglishDispenser said:

A few points:

• DIY programming of hearing aids is not a religion, cult or political movement. It’s not even impossible … you can already buy aids complete with fitting software and cables.

• Most hearing aid users will not want DIY solutions for their hearing loss.

• The standard manufacturers have no financial reason to hugely increase their costs in order to support a handful of DIY clients. Niche manufacturers however can support DIY users.

• As in all industries, a few audis are not exactly perfect - but most are adequate, and some are even quiet capable.

• There is no mega conspiracy between audis and manufacturers to keep prices high etc. The hearing aid market is like any other : subject to market forces. You can get expensive suppliers, discount suppliers … even possibly illegal grey-market foreign suppliers.

If you want a DIY self programming solution, you can certainly find one - but it’s not fair on the majority of prospective users to act as if that the DIY approach is ‘The One True Way’.

It’s also not fair to make out that most audis and most manufacturers are ‘The Spawn Of The Devil’.

All these arguments about the perceived ‘evils’ of the industry certainly won’t help casual visitors to this web site.

I disagree.

DIY programming of the high end aids is legally impossible due to to vendor refusal to license the needed software and sell the equipment needed for DIY programming.

I cannot legally program, even slightly, my Micro Tech (Starkey) aids due to the marketing decisions of Starkey.

Some people on this forum have illegally obtained the items needed, but that does not change the problem here.

@EnglishDispenser said:

Huh? This has suddenly got a bit personal.

I am NOT vehemently against self programming, otherwise I wouldn’t have tried to sell such solutions in the UK … but I don’t believe that it is the most important topic I have ever encountered.

I certainly doubt that it’s the key solution for the world’s hard of hearing.

Self programming, OTC sales and the like all have a place in the market … BUT … only as a niche.

My objection to many of the various posts here is that DIY and OTC solutions are NOT going to be of use to 95%+ of HOH who are seeking hearing aid solutions, so it’s not really fair to ‘push’ the DIY & OTC options so strongly.

As for prices, I’m not sure why I’m being attacked for having prices some 25% of what some dispensers in the UK can charge.

(To be fair to some of my more expensive colleagues, they may have much higher overheads etc than my practice)

By the way, whilst we are in the mood for mentioning weblinks take a look at www.fairhearing.net … that’s me too.

I would agree if such options actually existed.

Short of designing my own aids & software, that option does not exist.

I tried some lower end DIY aids, and they were not a great help for me. I paid their return fees to get something better.