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Phonak Roger - Out of sync issue

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Edited

Hello All,

Nice to meet you. I’m Joe and I live in Manchester (UK).

I’ll get straight to the point.
Issue: I’m experiencing annoying issues with my Roger equipment - it seems the sound coming from the Roger Select, or the Roger Pen and even the Roger Table Mic II is out of sync with the sound coming from my aids. I basically hear the sound/voices twice with a slight delay.

My aids: Phonak Belong V90 312T and I have a mild to profound hearing loss. No cochlear implant.
I’m currently using a Compilot II + Roger X (03) to connect to the roger devices.

I have an iCube II and phonak Target and I’m trying to fix the issue myself but unsuccessfully. Already booked an appointment with the audiologist but it’s going to take a while…

I tried:

  • Reducing the aids microphone by up to 16DB (started with 0, then decreased by -2), but this only reduces the issue.
  • Completely disable the aids microphone: This kind of works but I’d rather keep the microphone enabled as it should (and microphone on it’s also recommended in the settings…)
  • Modify the Roger streaming program by loweing the Gain (all frequency): this does absolutely nothing.
  • Trying with a second Compilot II: same result.
  • Resetting the compilot II, the roger stuff and the aids: nothing.

Now, I tried to search for this here and there but it seems only few people have this issue and no one has solved it. How can this be possible? Could it be that my aids are somehow damaged? Maybe there’s a hidden setting in the Target software I am not aware of?
I mean, there has to be a reason.

I’m starting to be very frustrated as this equipment is very expensive and there has to be something I am doing wrong but I do not understand what…

Also: is it normal that, if I connect the compilot via bluetooth to my phone and listen to music, the quality is much higher compared to if I connectr any roger device to any source via cable?
The difference is really night and day.

I know it’s a long shot, but has anyone had similar issue? if yes, any tip?

Many thanks,
J

4 people in this conversation9 min readJump to latest

First question would be what type of domes / ear moulds do you use? Do you have any vents?

Could be that you are hearing some of the sound naturally and then you’re also hearing the sound through the Roger.

I use a Roger System but I also have only a 0.8mm vent in my ear mould so don’t have the out of sync issue.

Edited

Hi Zebras,

Thanks for the reply.

I have power domes with no vent.
However, I have set “Occlusion compensation” to ‘weak’ under global tuning in Target. Might that be one causing the echo/sync issue?

Edit: seems not. Tried disabling it but nothing changed. It’s like there’s an actual delay between the sound coming from the aids and the sound coming from the roger equipment.

I don’t know what else to suggest.

You could put your fingers in your ears to see if that helps the sync issue.

Edited

Sound Degradation
As soon as you connect a device by audio cable, it switches from digital to analog (D2A). In your hearing aids the sound is again digitized(, filtered, amplified) and made analog to work the speakers. Every D2A en A2D conversion will degrade sound.
Compounding this is that wireless transfer of digitized sound uses audio compression. To get a good result in reducing the amount of data, you’ll have to introduce some loss in fidelity. So here is some audio degradation, too.
The Roger system transfers over , no idea what compression is used. Bluetooth between ComPilot and TVLink or mobile uses hopefully at least AD2P: the somewhat lossy profile to compress the audio stream.
( On my previous mobile LG G2 and Bernafon Soundgate I had to use FLAC files, because the decompression of mp3 files and subsequent compression with AD2P to send it from mobile to Soundgate introduced too much audio loss: Really ugly music. Either my ears have gone further down hill or the technology of ComPilot and iPhone6 is better, because nowadays I can listen to mp3 without getting annoyed. )

Sound delay
The only delay I have found are between natural TV sound and bluetooth () transferred TV sound and between natural piano sound and sound.

TV:
HA users fall in the same category here as BT headset wearers, so there is some information sprinkled around the web about it. I tried everything with reduced latency in the Bluetooth profiles: no luck. So I think I added some latency to the normal sound. ( Again this is also resolved with the newer technology, both TV and HA and TV link. )

Piano:
@Zebras’ suggestion is that the delay is not between Roger and Hearing Aids (HA’s), but between natural hearing and Hearing system. The slight delay between the natural sound of the piano and the HA’s gives cause to some dissonances. I only have 9mm vent holes in my molds, too. However, when I play the piano with power domes: no dissonances. (The double, non-vented domes keep out my daughters noise as well. Unfortunatly, they itch and the introduce a lower pressure between my eardrums and the domes.) I also found that the used as a base for the music program impacts the amount of keys that sound dissonant: some do and some don’t. Lastly, I found that the fitting formula in global settings also impacted the dissonance: With the same audiogram the Adaptive Phonak Digital did introduce dissonances, while the NAL-NL-1 and Adaptive Phonak Digital Contrast did not.
As I see that you already have power domes, disabling the HA’s mic alleviates the problem and my experience is that the delay is not that big to cause sync issues, but rather introduce dissonances, I don’t think this approach will be very fruitful.

Roger System reduced chain
Looking at the chain of devices: Is it (Roger Table Mic, Roger Select, Roger Pen)>RogerX>Compilot II>Bolero(?)V90’s or (Roger Table Mic, Roger Pen)> Roger Select>RogerX>Compilot II>Bolero(?)V90’s ?
Are all Roger devices enabled at once? Did you try disabling 2 out of three devices to see whether the delay is acceptable with only a reduced chain?
You could try to test the Roger boots that fit directly onto the HA’s. It would cut out the Compilot and hopefully reduce the delay.

Hi Mark,

Thank you very much for the detailed reply.

Streaming Sound Quality:
I understand the quality loss during streaming. It also happens if you connect the Select through bluetooth I’m afraid. I guess I just expected too much.
I know I can use the Compilot II directly, but it does not always pair with all devices for some reason (E.G. my tv won’t pair…), so the jack connected to the Select would’ve been a good addition.
As you said, I tried the TV link and the quality is very good so my guess is that Phonak purposely limited this feature with the other accessories so that the TV link has it’s sense… fair enough. I won’t buy it just for this though, already wasted too much money.

Device Chain
I tried using the devices with the following combination:
Roger Table Mic II > Roger Select > Roger X > Compilot II > V90
Roger Table Mic II > Roger X > Compilot II > V90
Roger Select > Roger X > Compilot II > V90
Roger Pen > Roger X > Compilot II > V90

The result is exactly the same. Note: I always turn off the devices I do not use.

The only thing that helps, is turning off the microphone. This way, the only annoying thing is my own voice, which of course is the only thing I can actually hear with my own ears when wearing power domes.

There’s definitely a delay when using the roger equipment. As I’m typing now while using the roger select, I can clearly hear the sound slightly after I press the key. Also, I can see people’s voice out of sync with their lips.

I can understand that, as the chain is long, the sound is delayed. But, I do not understand why this seems not to happy to everyone who use these devices. Maybe my hearing aids’ is somehow broken?

In reply to @Zebras

Thanks, you’re right about that:

How is Roger different to ?
• Operates in the globally license-free 2.4 GHz frequency band
• Digital technology
• No channel management required
• 200-7,300 Hz audio frequency bandwidth
• Virtually unlimited number of Roger networks can be used in one building.

Further explanation are here3.

Edited

In reply to @rayman85gr

I also use RogerX(03) with Compilot II with Phonak Bolero B90’s. It doesn’t use , so you shouldn’t have to worry about that. What’s even better: I do not remember hearing delays, ever! I’ll test it in a bit for you.

My old setup was RogerPen>RogerMyLink>analog mono audio cable>Bernafon Soundgate>Bernafon Chronos. No delays even there. (With telecoil ’s you would only need MyLink and the RogerPen of course.)

So my idea is that you should check in Phonak Target software whether you Roger Pen and RogerX (and optionally the ComPilot) are still under warranty and make it their problem.

EDIT: No problems with lip sync with my daughter. Understanding her clearly. So no problems with the setup RogerPen>RogerX(03)>ComPilot II>Phonak Bolero B90’s.

Again, thank you both for your replies.

Small update: I tried with another roger pen, roger x (02) and Compilot II: the issue is the same. There must be something I am doing wrong in the settings.

Just out of curiosity: If I compare the gain between AutoSense and the Roger streaming program, I can see that the Roger one has much more gain on the lower frequency. Is this normal? Shouldn’t the two almost be the same?

Can someone send me a screenshot of their settings so that I can check?

My Roger program has more gain in the low frequencies as well. Not sure why but I left it as it is.

Already tried with a second ComPilot, same result.

This only leaves , some sort of software bug triggered by certain settings or it’s me. Could it be that I “perceive” it as a sound delay but it’s not?

In any case, I was able to get an appointment with the audioligist tomorrow, he’ll make me try another HA as well. Let’s see how it goes. I’ll let you know as if it gets fixed, the solution could help anyone else experiencing the same issue.

Again, thanks for your support :slight_smile:

When I started using Roger equipment with my Phonak aids I learned there was a good-better-best way to hook up. The MyLink, the Compilot and going direct. The MyLink was slowest and the going direct was fastest and best and most expensive as you needed two receivers.The mics on your are direct. The Compilot has to be slower. When I converted to a with my new Phonak HA I went direct The RogerX receiver to the HA and the Roger R21 to the Sonnet CI. Really had little choice as the Compilot and the Medel Sonnet coil don’t get along, But there is no lag issue with any of the devices you mention. Too bad you cant test this for yourself - but I’ll bet it’s the issue - the Compilot connection is just not as fast as the HA mic.
I know your audi can set your aids so that when the Roger is detected, the aid mic shuts off. I did this for a while. My CI goes to a 50/50 setup. You might be able to have your audi do a program that allows you to finger flip both HA’s out of the normal mic and just listen to the Roger signal when tou are in noise. Perhaps worth checking out.
Going direct for me is costlier too - battery life drops significantly. Miss having the Compilot to plug in and recharge every night.

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