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Oticon More flutter at higher frequencies

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Edited

So, I begin my journey with More 1.
I got fitted Friday, the 20th.

Quick recap:
2013-2017: Oticon Agil Pro loved the Oticon sound
2017-2020: Oticon OPN 1 miniRite The OPN paradigm was just the right step up.
March 2020 -June 2020: Phonak Marvel R Loved connectivity (I’m android guy), but could not get flutter issues resolved.
July 2020-August 2021: Oticon OPN S 1 miniRite R Same problem as Marvels: flutter at higher frequencies.
This is a known issue with the OPN S, and Oticon support stated that it is corrected with the new Polaris chip on the More.

I get my aids through the , and my audi was able to get authorization to upgrade me to the More, so here I am!

Guess what?
I’m still getting flutter!
We totally started over from sccratch with my newest perscription, and . I only have the General, and Music programs.
My audi adjusted gains, and sound contols.

The only thing that really changed from the OPN 1 to the Phonak’s, and OPN S, and More was the custom earmold vent size.
The OPN’s had a 2.4mm vent vs Marvel to More’s 1.4mm vent.

I replaced the sealed earmold/receivers with a pair of earmolds and receivers from the OPN’s, and the flutter was not as evident, but still apparent.

I dug up a pair of Power miniFit domes I had in my goody box, and reduced the flutter even further.

Apparently, acoustics are the culprit?

I haven’t had time to update and fine tune the settings in Genie 2, but, am hopeful I’ll eliminate the issue.
I have a follow-up appt. with the VA Sept. 29th, so if I have no luck, perhaps the audi can work with Oticon support.

Bottom line though, is I really do not perceive a great difference between the OPN S and the More’s, yet.
TBH, I really loved the OPN 1’s More than the OPN S, or the More, so a negative wow factor, here.

More to come…

6 people in this conversation13 min readJump to latest

I have the More1 aids from the and love them, I had the OPNS1 and the OPN1 too and each worked for me but not as good as the More1 aids.

In reply to @cvkemp

Yeah, Chuck, I’ve been following your journey, and am really happy how life changing they’ve been for you.
I count myself lucky to have the type of loss which is more readily corrected than yours.

As we both know, no 2 people have the exact same results with the same instruments.

Edited

@flashb1024 If you think it’s the acoustics of the fitting being the culprit for the flutter, one more thing I’d try if I were you is to put the More 1’s fitting/sealed earmold receivers onto the OPN 1 to see if it would cause the fluttering on the OPN 1. My hunch is that it still wouldn’t cause the fluttering.

And if my hunch is correct, then it tells me that it’s more likely that the fluttering is from the new feedback prevention technology from the OPN S (the OpenSound Optimizer) that gets carried over to the More (now the MoreSound Optimizer). And despite Oticon saying that they fixed the Optimizer fluttering issue in the More, they really didn’t fix anything. Probably because it’s an inherent drawback of the technology that can’t be fixed, but it only affects some people like yourself, but not everyone, so they just let it be. In that case, whoever told you that they fixed it in the More probably lied to you, or was lied to by whomever told them that.

So by your trying to change the fitting acoustic, it sounds like maybe you found a workaround to alleviate the issue for you, but not necessarily the fitting acoustic being the real culprit, but the Optimizer being the real culprit, and the OPN fitting acoustic is actually a workaround that helps, and the Power dome being another workaround that helps even more. But it sounds like the flutter is still there for you, albeit much further reduced by now.

In reply to @Volusiano

@Volusiano Thanks for your insightful reply.
I agree the problem is inherent in the Oticon feedback algorithm.
I’m certain my OPN’s would never exhibit that phenomena, as I had tried that experiment with the OPN S, which are the same as the More earmolds.
Today, I attended a musical function at a room I’ve been going to for 4 years, and for the 1st time I was totally overwhelmed by echo, and artifacts
It was a solo piano playing, and I switched between Music & General, and the difference was quite profound.
Music program caused extreme echo, and a rustling sound.
General caused echo, albeit flatter sounding (to be expected), and a sense of what I can only describe as a swirling and pulsating sound sensation instead of the rustling.
Afterwords, talking to a small group of friends, with some recorded music playing in the next room, it was very difficult to discern the conversation.
All this with the new earmolds.

I plan on creating a new client in Genie 2 tomorrow, and reprogramming, using the Oticon 1st fit guide.
We’ll see how that goes.

Thanks for all your input.

In reply to @flashb1024

Wow, the More shouldn’t be that bad compared to the OPN S that you had. If I had to guess, I would say that maybe the fitting selection on Genie 2 for some reason doesn’t match with what you actually have on the More.

You did mentioned that you replaced the sealed earmold/receivers from the More with the earmolds/receivers from the OPNs, then you switched it out with the Power miniFit domes and it helped more with the flutter. But did you change the Selection -> Acoustic in Genie 2 to match with the new fitting that you put on the More? If not, then it’ll result in all the weird stuff you heard at your piano concert.

@Volusiano said:

But did you change the Selection → Acoustic in Genie 2 to match with the new fitting that you put on the More?

No I didn’t, because I’m wearing the earmolds I was fitted with.
It doesn’t make sense for sure, that’s why I’m going to start from scratch.
Maybe, just maybe, my audi did something erroneous, and felonious.
Or, I have a defective pair of More’s?
That’s it, More or less.

In reply to @flashb1024

@flashb1024 said:

I plan on creating a new client in Genie 2 tomorrow, and reprogramming, using the Oticon 1st fit guide.
We’ll see how that goes.

It may be too soon to tell, but creating a new client , inputting my , and doing the personalization section in Genie 2, along with a few fitting tweaks, seems to have helped significantly.

I’ll know “MORE” when I get the opportunity to get into a similar situation as I described above.

That’s great to hear! The curiosity remains for the engineer in me on what could be causing the fluttering in the original client setup you had…

@Volusiano said:

The curiosity remains for the engineer in me on what could be causing the fluttering in the original client setup you had…

I can’t export my settings from Genie 2 without using the Noah database.
I guess I could send you some screen caps of the 2 clients, if you wish.

@flashb1024: Flutes are notorious for producing pure tones that the mistakes for feedback. It keeps trying to suppress it, but can’t, because there’s no feedback loop.

Hence the term : “fluttering”. FYI

@SpudGunner said:

Hence the term : “ flut tering”. FYI

Also known as TITF syndrome (Talking in the fan)
Pianos, and certain vocal tones do it, too.
Should not be present in music program, but I was getting it in general & music programs.
It’s much improved since I did my tweaks in Genie, and today the new My Music program became available, so I’ll be testing it out this evening.

I’m not an expert and don’t try to be one. But the op has a significant loss in the higher frequency range. Could it be that the aids are being over extended in that range and possibly a strong aid would reduce the flutter he’s experiencing

I’m not an either, but there’s fluttering and there’s feedback, which are 2 different things. Feedback can either be a constant pitch sound or a whistling sound, depending on the nature of the feedback. But fluttering is more of a wobbling sound.

I think what you’re describing (over extending in the high) is probably more likely feedback than fluttering. But actually a stronger aid usually would increase amplification and cause the feedback to be worse, not better, if the problem is indeed feedback. After all, it is the stronger amplification that is causing the feedback back into the mics in the first place.

Usually one of the traditional feedback strategies is to slightly shift the frequency by 10 Hz or so. The idea I think is to disrupt any potential resonance that would promote feedback. Usually, most people can’t tell a difference in the overall sound if the frequency is shifted by only 10 Hz before amplification. But if a pure tone is picked up by the mics, shifting it by 10 Hz then amplifying the sound, and hearing the natural unamplified sound through the vent in parallel, has the potential to create the fluttering effect because you’re not hearing just 1 pure tone anymore, but now you’re really hearing 2 pure tones, the unaided original pure tones, and the amplified pure tone that’s 10 Hz off, hence the fluttering effect.

For the Oticon OPN S and the More, there’s another effect due to the feedback prevention technology (called the Optimizer) that Oticon employs which is the insertion of the STMs as I mentioned earlier in this thread to break up any potential onset of feedback. This can be heard by some folks and may be interpreted as fluttering as well. But this fluttering is considered the lesser evil between itself and the feedback, and it’s not always heard by everyone all the times, so Oticon deems it an acceptable side effect/trade-off for feedback prevention.

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