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Imbalance (by two volume clicks) on Phonak Audeo Spheres when streaming

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When blue-tooth streaming on Phonak Audeo spheres left ear is about two volume steps lower than the right ear. What would cause this and how to correct it?

Additionally, the device tones (batt low, volume change etc) are feint in the left ear. Currently set on Target as left ear very loud and right ear very soft in order to make them sound equal.

They have been like this from issue and my audiologist is puzzled.

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@cantoris said:

When blue-tooth streaming on Phonak Audeo spheres left ear is about two volume steps lower than the right ear.

Have you and your audiologist tried swapping in a fresh pair of Spheres with the same settings? My first instinct in debugging is always to try to “chop the problem into smaller pieces” - in this case, if you change hardware, does the problem “move” with the hardware, or does it “move” with the settings?

Obviously, if the problem goes away with a different pair of Spheres running the same settings, you’ve isolated a hardware problem and your old Spheres need to be repaired or replaced. If the problem persists with a new pair, things are more interesting; I’d defer to people on the forum who are experienced Target DIYers and/or providers themselves, who might have some insight into what could cause such odd behavior. (At least your would seem to rule out one set of problems - you’ve got your ears marching nicely in lock-step.)

thanks, Im on the second pair as first left ear aid failed to produce any sound at all.

I have (via target) swapped back to an earlier recorded which has solved the imbalance for both streaming and device tones (and possibly general hearing too?). The earlier test was in a booth, the subsequent test was in-the-ear measurements.

How do i address the issue sensitively with my audiologist? They dont know i have Target etc..

@cantoris said:

I have (via target) swapped back to an earlier recorded audiogram which has solved the imbalance for both streaming and device tones (and possibly general hearing too?).

Which are we looking at when we press your audiogram button? And what does the other audiogram look like?

Edited

ah good point; the one on my profile is the original one (headphones/booth measurements). The subsequent in-the-ear measurements showed higher/better/less loss results for left ear by as much as 15dB at 500-1000Hz (the rest looks the same, and right ear is the same). I’m thinking therefore that the device tones and streaming level may have been set accordingly. I’m much happier and more balanced now, using the original measurements.

Could be a bad receiver.

Wax in the receiver or defective hearing aid.

would catch this problem. Was REM done?

Testing in the test box would also find the problem.

strangely I think the caused the problem; it suggested I had a better hearing response in the left ear but left me hearing less amplified sounds, which made it feel unbalanced. I’d like to do a REM for myself by myself but I don’t think it would be realistic - I wonder if others have done this successfully..

Edited

doesn’t really have much to do with your hearing loss per se - it’s a measure of how the hearing aids (including programming, the aids themselves, receivers, domes, physical placement in the ear canal, and the geometry of your ear canal) are delivering sound to the eardrum. So REM is useful in comparing the actual sound output reaching your eardrum with the prescribed output based on your ; if you’re supposed to be getting X amount of amplification at frequency Y, REM will tell you if that’s actually what you’re getting.

What REM will not tell you is whether your prescription is correct for your hearing loss and preferences. Hearing loss is normally a function of damage to the hair cells in the cochlea, and REM doesn’t measure anything that happens after sound hits your eardrum. If your audiogram and/or prescription are inaccurate, all REM can do is confirm that you’re getting the “full benefit” of an incorrect prescription - which, obviously, isn’t likely to be very full or beneficial.

It’s also important to remember that even with a perfect audiogram (to the extent that that’s even a meaningful concept), a prescription that accurately corresponds to the audiogram, and REM to ensure that the delivered output is exactly what was prescribed, the result will not necessarily be exactly what you want. You are not your audiogram! Even after all this “perfection”, it’s more than likely that you’ll want some changes made to get things sounding their best to you. On the other hand, having an accurate starting point should make the adjustments a lot simpler and easier than they would be otherwise.

thats interesting, thank you..Im perhaps confusing myself. When i open a Target session and tap on , the page shows two traces for each ear. One trace is called “Audiogram” with a date, and the second trace is labelled “AudiogramDirect” and shows a more recent date. The older-dated trace is, i believe, as a result of hearing test with headphones in a booth. The more recently dated trace is perhaps derived somehow after doing a test. The newer trace i didnt like (unbalanced feel) and so i choose AudiogramDirect trace. Would the REM test results appear anywhere on Target?

Swap the aids over - put the wrong one in each side. If they’re still out by a margin in the same ears, its your hearing/ bad test, if you’ve moved the problem across your head, it’s the programming/physical issue.

Don’t get lost in the (which actually doesn’t appear to have happened). The aids shoud be roughly equivalent loudness on both sides. Whoever has fitted them should be more than capable in dealing with that. Unless they arrived on horseback….

In reply to @cantoris

@cantoris said:

The newer trace i didnt like (unbalanced feel) and so i choose AudiogramDirect trace.

I’m confused! Didn’t you say that the AudiogramDirect trace was the more recent one?

I can’t (yet) help with Target, as I’ve taken only the first step into the rabbit hole: I ordered my NoahLink from AliExpress last night. However, I can tell you - with this link to back me up What is AudiogramDirect and When Would a Hearing Care Provider Use It? - Ask the Experts 272693 - that AudiogramDirect is Phonak’s version of an in-situ . Because it measures your hearing response to tones played by your hearing aids, and thus reflects the functionality of the hardware, the shape of your ear canal, and your actual hearing ability, it should theoretically convey at least some of the benefits of Real Ear Measurement along with an accurate measure of your hearing loss. The results should normally be fairly close to your conventional audiogram; if they are significantly different, the obvious question is why. It’s entirely possible for the in situ test to be more accurate than the conventional one, or for the conventional audiogram to be more accurate - or they could be equally inaccurate in different ways!

In your case, it sounds like the AudiogramDirect results - assuming that they are what was used to program your hearing aids - are not in fact a very good reflection of your hearing. The obvious question is what went wrong…

my mistake - yes the newer trace is the AudiogramDirect which i disliked so i chose the older (conventional) .

Thanks for explaining the difference - that does make sense. I think I may have aggravated the anomaly by trying a larger dome in the left ear for better occlusion during one of the visits…

I’ve lots to learn ! :grin:

Since you have Target, I would create a new Direct to see if that is better. Ideally Audiogram Direct should be the best since it is a measure of your hearing with the hearing aids in your ears.

Edited

Good suggestion! I plan to do much the same once my NoahLink arrives and I can start my new mad-scientist career - although I’ve already got two recent conventional that pretty much agree with each other. It’ll be kind of a substitute…

In reply to @cantoris

@cantoris said:

doing a REM test

My Audi while doing the following the results also adjust the gain on my left side as it’s my worse ear, at the same time I let her know if the sound feels balanced from left to right i.e. in the center of my head, that way I get to hear in a balance way.

I had the same issue. During streaming, the right was two clicks louder than the left. This was after a initial fitting with Sphere 90s updated to the Ultra firmware. I went to the fine tuning tab, selected AutoSense OS (streaming), and reduced the insertion gain of the right HA for >= 3K by two clicks of the “Reduce by 3 Steps” button. Problem solved.

I have this exact problem, but I’ve come to realise that what your says, what the hearing aid mics pick up externally and what gets streamed are all very different things. It may be that your audi needs to adjust the balance of just the streaming program as they did for me, whilst the rest of the proscription still stands. Actualy in my case I got so sick of the proscription sounding weird to my x sound engineer ears, that I asked for a flat frequency response on both ears and simply turn up the aids on either side until the sound is balanced. Whilst this works for the external mics, when using roger or streaming, I have to correct for imbalance.

Edited

In reply to @raylock1

I noticed some variance between my actual and AudiogramDirect. I had based on the actual but would it be better to have REM based on the AudiogramDirect result?

How clearly should one hear the AudiogramDirect tone? Possibly it is audible to me at a level below the level matched to the test in the sound booth such that the variance is more of a user issue.

@user490 said:

I noticed some variance between my actual audiogram and AudiogramDirect

Very common and a good thing, you wouldn’t want it too far off!

@user490 said:

but would it be better to have REM based on the AudiogramDirect result?

Well only you would know this as no one else knows how you hear sounds, if your why would you bother, its not like its gonna magically restore your hearing or anything.

@user490 said:

How clearly should one hear the AudiogramDirect tone?

Again we don’t know how you actually hear it, but yeah just enough to be obvious to you, really if your happy with the results then stick with the In-situ audiometry you’ve done.

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