Starkey S Series IQ

@xbulder said:

I can not count the times people say T2 DOES NOT work-here. You need to talk to Dr Fabry who happens to be affilated with Starkey (audiosinc). He had publish a paper on how Multiband directional microphone DO WORK. Perhaps Dr Fabry now has changed his mind. He is a very well respected audiologist, I think he was even involve with HIAFF, cochlear implants, etc.

There are tons of papers on large bandwith sound quality and speech perception, some are really really old dated before the digital era.

Here is the article and the conclusion:

http://www.hearingreview.com/issues/articles/2005-04_02.asp1

Conclusions
Directional microphones provide measurable improvements in speech recognition in noise, satisfaction, and benefit when compared with omni-directional microphone hearing aids. Broadband and multi-band adaptive response directional microphone instruments provide improved speech recognition for conditions when one or two independent noise sources are present and are spatially dynamic. Reverberation and increased talker/listener distance negatively impact directional microphone performance.

The condition he describes where improvement is shown is called a laboratory with single sources of noise within 1.5 meters of the test subject. In the real world, this condition never happens because of reverberation and multiple noise sources. And every piece of research in the world on adaptive directional microphone systems concludes the same.

@golfsalot said:

Here is the article and the conclusion:

April 2005 | The Hearing Review

Conclusions
Directional microphones provide measurable improvements in speech recognition in noise, satisfaction, and benefit when compared with omni-directional microphone hearing aids. Broadband and multi-band adaptive response directional microphone instruments provide improved speech recognition for conditions when one or two independent noise sources are present and are spatially dynamic. Reverberation and increased talker/listener distance negatively impact directional microphone performance.

The condition he describes where improvement is shown is called a laboratory with single sources of noise within 1.5 meters of the test subject. In the real world, this condition never happens because of reverberation and multiple noise sources. And every piece of research in the world on adaptive directional microphone systems concludes the same.

Go talk to Dr Fabry… He did endorse Multi band adaptative directionality. That is a fact… I dont think he has changed his mind.

He did OPENLY endorse Multi band Directional microphones…
there is an interview @ audiology on line…

this is another interview

The Phonak Verve was designed from the ground up to appeal to upscale buyers who are willing to spend a bit more for the quality and convenience built into luxury items even a hearing aid. To this market segment, luxury is all about reliability, convenience, a bit of status and style lots of style.

The Phonak Verve is durable and reliable. Like most quality hearing devices today, its intended for heavy duty use under an endless variety of acoustic conditions. Verve wearers also have access to a worldwide network of technicians and hearing health professionals, delivering the quality of service consumers have come to expect in this digitally connected world.

The second facet of luxury is convenience, especially automated convenience. During a recent, exclusive interview with HealthyHearing.com, David Fabry, PhD, Phonaks Vice-President of Professional Relations and Education, explained some of Verves technological features.

Verve interacts with the user, providing spoken prompts to better equip the individual to take full advantage of Verves technology, Dr. Fabry explained. The technology is called SmartVoice.

Dr. Fabry continued, Unlike the hearing devices of just a decade ago that delivered blips and other sounds to indicate device status, Verve discreetly notifies the wearer, in human speech, what mode the device is in from calm to speech and noise. Verve also delivers reminders to wearers that batteries are low, and even reminds them when its time to visit the audiologist. Nice.

With Verves AutoPilot, the hearing device adapts to the wearers usual environments, learning more about the wearer each day.

Once an environment is identified by Verve, settings are determined automatically for both the environment and the wearers individual hearing needs. These settings are automatically activated when the wearer enters a recognized environment, the Verve spokesperson explained. Verves AutoPilot eliminates the need to constantly adjust the hearing device. Thats one element of luxury wearers will appreciate.

Another technology available in todays higher-quality hearing aids, including the Phonak Verve, is the ability to reduce annoying background noise. In the Verve, the feature is called SurroundZoom, designed to decrease annoying ambient noise.

Phonaks SoundCleaning is another luxurious technology of Verve and similar high-end devices. David Fabry explained how Verves SoundCleaning works. The device identifies sound anomalies and removes any disturbing noises [such as whistling, feedback and other distracting noise] while simultaneously balancing clarity and hearing comfort. The millions of adjustments to listening conditions made within the Verve each day deliver high quality, natural sound.

Verves Adaptive Directional Microphone is another technological feature introduced by Phonaks spokesperson during the interview. This microphone is able to identify spatial and spectral conditions within a room, or any other listening environment, and optimize Verves settings for the best hearing experience for the wearer, Dr. Fabry explained.

With Phonaks SoundCleaning, SmartTalk, AutoPilot, Adaptive Directional Microphone, and other technological features, consumers for whom price is not the primary consideration enjoy levels of luxury that should be expected from any quality hearing device, regardless of manufacturer. Ahh, but what about style? Can Phonak and other companies in the industry still deliver an extensive menu of conveniences in a stylish package?

Indeed. And in the case of Phonaks Verve, styling is simply a part of the package.

POINT IS… HE DID ENDORSE THIS.

@xbulder said:

Go talk to Dr Fabry… He did endorse Multi band adaptative directionality. That is a fact… I dont think he has changed his mind.

What does an endorsement by Dr. Fabry have to do with anything? You would ignore every piece of research ever published, including his own, because he endorsed the technology? Following your logic, Dr. Fabry works for Starkey, therefore he endorses Starkey, therefore YOU MUST endorse Starkey! And he also endorses the Green Bay Packers but I would NEVER suggest you do the same!

Here’s some clarification on two points mentioned in this discussion:

1. Broadband amplification

2. Directional microphone arrays using adaptive null steering logic

3. In regard to “extended bandwidth” hearing aids, this is no longer a distinguising factor between hearing aids or manufacturers. Essentially every decent quality hearing aid that you purchase from one of the leading manufacturer’s will offer an “extended bandwidth”. However, as the peak receiver gains increase the extent of the high frequency bandwidth will typically decrease.

The reality of a hearing aid fitting is the high frequency fitting range of a real-world hearing aid fitting is limited. In a 2008 Ear & Hearing article, researchers out of Cambridge stated that approximately 36 dB of gain would be required to restore audibility for average speech at 10,000 Hz for a 65 dBHL hearing loss. The take-home from this is that you are not going to restore speech audiblity in your hearing fittings at 10,000 Hz.

2. There’s plenty of literature in the area of adaptive null-steering and most of the conclusions are similar. The technology works well, when you have a single isolated near-field noise source. As soon as the environment becomes dominated by multiple noise sources, or the noise source is moved away from the listener those benefits disappear. Reviewing data from a recent article in the International Journal of Audiology it can be estimated that roughly 1% of listening situations are acoustically appropriate for receiving optimal benefit from adaptive null-steering technology.

Regarding multi-channel directional switching, there are almost no published data on this topic. Researchers from Widex recently showed a poster summarizing a project that attempted to document the benefits. In this study they used an extremely low pass noise that attempted to trigger an isolated range of switching. It was not a realistic test condition but they did show that if you build a specific test condition it can work.

The summary is that most benefits from fancy directional microphone logic are constrained to a limited set of listening conditions. Our patients will benefit more from counseling and training on proper orientation in noisy situations than most anything else. Additionally, directional microphone performance will change over time. It’s important that directional microphone performance is verified at the time of fitting and at subsequent follow-up visits.

I’m confused so help me out - Starkey aids DO HAVE adaptive directional mics, do they not??

dr. amy

@xbulder said:

Go talk to Dr Fabry… He did endorse Multi band adaptative directionality. That is a fact… I dont think he has changed his mind.

My ears were burning, and Otoease did not help, so I thought that I should register for this forum so that I can speak for myself on this issue. First, I must disclose that I do indeed work for AudioSync, which is one of the brands manufactured under the Starkey Group umbrella. Therefore, please consider that my opnion and perspective is biased by that view, but also by the fact that I do not believe that ethics are situational, and I woud never “endorse” anything that I did not believe is true (except, as golfsalot reveals, I AM a diehard Green Bay Packer fan and am ALWAYS loyal and optimistic regarding their chances).

Seriously, though, my position on directional microphones has not changed since I conducted work with directional microphones (in collaboration with Mike Valente at Wash U) while I was at Mayo Clinic in 1994. Although directional mics had been available since the 1970s in this country, the improvements available (ITE/BTE, ability to turn on/off, equalized/nonequalized response) provided improvements and we found considerable subjective and objective benefits that I saw clinically with many patients. That said, as golfsalot reported, the benefits of adaptive directionality are limited to conditions where talker/listener distance is short, reverberation is low, and the noise “jammer” is moving or outside the “null” position on the polar pattern of a fixed directional system. In diffuse listening environments that are typical outside of the laboratory, fixed and adaptive systems provide equivalent results.

Many studies support this statement; I also stated that although adaptive directionality is not always better than fixed directional, it is never worse, but I have also routinely added two caveats: 1) for multiple microphone systems that suffer from microphone “drift” due to moisture, cerumen, or other debris clogging the microphones or 2) if the adaptive directional feature introduces artifacts and/or distortions that are audible to the hearing aid user.

I hope that this clarifies my position on this issue: I am a HUGE fan of directional microphones, and have been for nearly twenty years of clinical and research experience. I think that Dr. Robyn Cox says it best in her 2005 paper (JAAA 16: 419-438) that differentiates between efficacy and effectiveness with any advanced technical feature. Simply put, efficacy asks whether a specific feature or treatment CAN work under the best possible circumstances (i.e. the laboratory), while effectiveness asks whether the feature or treatment DOES work under typical conditions encountered by hearing aid users. The literature shows rather convincingly that while adaptive directional microphones are “efficacious”, they are NOT “effective” in real-world conditions versus fixed directionality. Finally, directional microphones are not a panacea; ALL directional microphone systems (fixed or adaptive) will provide benefits only when reverberation is low, talker/listener distance is short, and speech and noise are spatially separated. Last but not least, the role of the clinician is vital to providing the appropriate counselling and realistic expectations for benefit.

I hope that this makes sense; my position on this has not changed in over a decade. Sorry for the long post, but I am quite passionate on this topic and wanted to state my position myself.

I see - thanks for clearing that up for me

dr. amy

The non-audiologist layman here is trying to follow this conversation and is getting a splitting headache! But it does highlight the degree of technical knowledge needed to be in this business, and my respect for all of you continues to increase.

In light of this discussion, perhaps you can help me understand how my Starkey S Series 11 IQ’s are working. Program 1, the default program, apparently uses both microphones in each aid and is omni-directional. In most cases this program works well. I am a performing musician (one man band), and after getting the Starkey’s, found program 1 to be disorienting when performing. It seemed as though the software was constantly working to adjust to changes in volume, and since sounds were coming from multiple directions, the effect was disconcerting. During one performance, I accidentally changed to Program 2. My Audi tells me Program 2 uses only 1 microphone, and is thereby directional. I think this is also the program used in noisy situations. Program 2 was miraculous in a performance setting - volume levels remained constant. No disorientation!

Does my experience relate in any way to the multi-directional adapative issue?

Thanks, and keep up the discussion! Technology is not only amazing, but also gives rise to the “mine is better than yours” debates which are fun to read (my gold plated ear trumpet is better than your silver model because gold resonates at a frequency closer to that of a dog’s ears :eek:).

John

0500 R-40 L-35
1000 R-55 L-40
2000 R-65 L-60
4000 R-85 L-75
8000 R-95 L-70

You’ve made some good observations. The only point of confusion is that the directional setting is best understood as using multiple microphones in each hearing aid, while the omni-directional setting only needs one for processing.

Today’s hearing aids are constantly trying to adjust for environmental changes. Their main goal is speech processing, from that perspective music is secondary. Hearing aids offer programs that limit the automatic adjustments you’re hearing. It sounds like you’re using this option effectively.

@hearagain said:

Starkey has adaptive directional, but different. It’s not multiband directionality. Phonak for instance will reduce noise on a polar plot using their directional microphones. They call the “plots;” “bands.”

Starkey just adapts from Omni to Dynamic directional instead of focusing on polar plots.

Once and for all.

This is how it works: you develop your directional plot using either two (or more) mics or a directional single mic. This plot indicates levels of similar amplification, either free-field (pointless) or stapped to a KEMAR. You then spin MR. KEMAR (or your source) around to derive the levels through 360degrees.

Nominally you do this at 1Khz and then report the major frequencies above etc. This gives you polar plot readings at different frquecies.

Adaptive directionality alters the time delay between mics to move null spots or increase higher sensitivity spots.

Multiband Adaptive Directionality modifies the cardiod response in however many bands it can to create several nulls to deal with multiple noise sources. Furthermore these can track moving noise sources. An example of this is dealing with a speaker in a Kitchen who is pouring water in a sink ie. the speech AND the noise are coming from the same direction, however a well controlled MAD aid can pull more speech from the situation where the AD aid may turn the signal down due to the noise element or make it overbearing due to turning the speech AND the water noise up.

Phonak and Oticon have been doing this over the last few iterations of product. Starkey make nice brochures.

@Um_bongo said:

Once and for all.

This is how it works: you develop your directional plot using either two (or more) mics or a directional single mic. This plot indicates levels of similar amplification, either free-field (pointless) or stapped to a KEMAR. You then spin MR. KEMAR (or your source) around to derive the levels through 360degrees.

Nominally you do this at 1Khz and then report the major frequencies above etc. This gives you polar plot readings at different frquecies.

Adaptive directionality alters the time delay between mics to move null spots or increase higher sensitivity spots.

Multiband Adaptive Directionality modifies the cardiod response in however many bands it can to create several nulls to deal with multiple noise sources. Furthermore these can track moving noise sources. An example of this is dealing with a speaker in a Kitchen who is pouring water in a sink ie. the speech AND the noise are coming from the same direction, however a well controlled MAD aid can pull more speech from the situation where the AD aid may turn the signal down due to the noise element or make it overbearing due to turning the speech AND the water noise up.

Phonak and Oticon have been doing this over the last few iterations of product. Starkey make nice brochures.

Just think, an IQ noise management system with multiband adaptive directionality.

A shame no other manufacturers besides Starkey have come up with that yet.

@hearagain said:

Just think, an IQ noise management system with multiband adaptive directionality.

A shame no other manufacturers besides Starkey have come up with that yet.

Starkey does not have multiband adaptative directionality.
A small correction to UM bongo, siemens do have multiband directionality.
GN has also multiband directionality. Pretty much everybody out there…

@xbulder said:

Starkey does not have multiband adaptative directionality.
A small correction to UM bongo, siemens do have multiband directionality.
GN has also multiband directionality. Pretty much everybody out there…

Agreed. I was using Oticon and Phonak as examples, but as you say, there are several more.

If you don’t have the R+D budget for this stuff, then you don’t get the results. Especially when you are sploffing lots of cash on a bluetooth replacement.