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Obscene Hearing Aid Profits!

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Edited

And old threads would be locked so people do not resurrect zombie threads just because they think their problem is similar.

It is difficult to try to follow a thread & respond to somebody when it was opened 2 years ago and the last poster with a problem had very little in common with the original poster.

Alas, our moderators seem to me missing in action. A while ago, I believe MarkHill said he was going to moderate some. I had high hopes, but very little has happened since.

I have almost given up reporting spam post because they are not removed.

Sorry for yet another OT post in this thread…

In reply to @alpine1

@alpine1 said:

further more if this site were truly run by it’s moderator(s) straying from the OP would not be allowed!

In fairness though, this is a discussion board and a discussion will move on from the original question.

There are usually only six or seven thread themes on here which get repeated ad infitum: some will involve new posters and most get answered by the senior members. In every one Starkey will receive unequivocal praise: since they invented the wheel, fire, the printing press and the internet.

Before this thread ties, I would like to say this:

I can see both and all sides of this debate, and I really can’t add much to the discussion, except to say that I am not terribly bothered by the price of hearing aids, but I absolutely depise the sleazy, secretive pricing.

In reply to @Um_bongo

@Um_bongo said:

In fairness though, this is a discussion board and a discussion will move on from the original question.

There are usually only six or seven thread themes on here which get repeated ad infitum: some will involve new posters and most get answered by the senior members. In every one Starkey will receive unequivocal praise: since they invented the wheel, fire, the printing press and the internet.

I am only “up” on Starkey since that is the last brand I purchased. Actually, they have been in for repair for a week, so I have been using my 9 year old Widex Diva aids. They work reasonably well, but the technology has advanced since they were made. (See, I can praise more than just Starkey. I cannot fault Widex for not using today’s technology 9 years ago.)

I try not to be too hard on Phonak. My audiologist apparently could not properly program the Spice aids, and they were convinced they were programmed correctly. I am sure that their aids are very good when programmed correctly.

Actually, I wish my current fitter was more skilled so I could take better advantage of the newer technology, but at least the sound from my new aids is liveable (when they work). Unfortunately, both aids died within couple of days of each other.

In reply to @Um_bongo

@Um_bongo said:

In fairness though, this is a discussion board and a discussion will move on from the original question.

There are usually only six or seven thread themes on here which get repeated ad infitum: some will involve new posters and most get answered by the senior members. In every one Starkey will receive unequivocal praise: since they invented the wheel, fire, the printing press and the internet.

This is true, it’s a discussion board. Many people come looking for answers and opinions and they may not be saavy enough to do a search or understand the “rules” about posting and “not straying off topic” and such. There is such a wide variety of hearing aid users and pros here, from users who are new and don’t know (yet) what occlusion is…to the engineer types who know all the technical jargon. It would be counterproductive to eliminate posts that stray off topic, because discussions frequently stray off topic, but people still learn from them.

Um Bongo, you forgot the fact that Starkey invented hearing. I think I read that in a post here somewhere…:smiley:

@Melissa said:

This is true, it’s a discussion board. Many people come looking for answers and opinions and they may not be saavy enough to do a search or understand the “rules” about posting and “not straying off topic” and such. There is such a wide variety of hearing aid users and pros here, from users who are new and don’t know (yet) what occlusion is…to the engineer types who know all the technical jargon. It would be counterproductive to eliminate posts that stray off topic, because discussions frequently stray off topic, but people still learn from them.

Um Bongo, you forgot the fact that Starkey invented hearing. I think I read that in a post here somewhere…:smiley:

Melissa, you forgot your sarcasm tags again…

@prodigyplace said:

Melissa, you forgot your sarcasm tags again…

Darnit, my little face with the cheesy grin isn’t cutting it as a ‘sarcasm tag?’ I keep searching in vain for the sarcasm font, but this forum doesn’t seem to have it…:rolleyes:

In reply to @JohnC

@JohnC said:

Before this thread ties, I would like to say this:

I can see both and all sides of this debate, and I really can’t add much to the discussion, except to say that I am not terribly bothered by the price of hearing aids, but I absolutely depise the sleazy, secretive pricing.

I agree with this JohnC.

I’ve seen hearing ‘professionals’ that write the price on a piece of paper and slide it over to the patient like a used car salesman. Do you want, good, better or best they ask as they show the three hand written prices.

Seeing this kind of behavior from a colleague usually makes me have malevolent and violent thoughts! :mad:

Personally, I carry an iPad with all the prices on in a user-friendly format showing every model (with no extras for picking a different size of unit). It just shows every technology level from the most expensive to the cheapest.

If any patient asks for it up front I show them the entire thing before we even progress.

This business doesn’t have to be underhand or sleazy, but for some odd reason, some idiots think it does.

In reply to @Um_bongo

@Um_bongo said:

In fairness though, this is a discussion board and a discussion will move on from the original question.

There are usually only six or seven thread themes on here which get repeated ad infitum: some will involve new posters and most get answered by the senior members. In every one Starkey will receive unequivocal praise: since they invented the wheel, fire, the printing press and the internet.

If you look back over my 1000+ posts, you will see that simply isn’t true of me. Of course I know you do this because you like to troll through things I posted years ago to try and prove me wrong.

I’d rather be happy with the products I fit my patients, than some bitter cynic looking to trash others, and cause negativity.

In reply to @JohnC

@JohnC said:

I, too, know people who live below the poverty line who take advantage of state run programs, and consequently have health insurance superior to mine.

To all those poor people, I say:

“I am grateful that I able to pay taxes and ease your burden”

The sadness isn’t that the poor people have better coverage than you. The sadness is that we don’t all have world class coverage, given that we spend double per capita than any other nation.

But as flawed as the current system is, it has never bothered me if poor people have programs to help them. I believe health care is a human right in a modern society.

There is truth in the notion that you can judge a lot about a society by how the weakest and most vulnerable are treated. And on that score, America could (and should want to) do better.

@ZCT said:

The sadness isn’t that the poor people have better coverage than you. The sadness is that we don’t all have world class coverage, given that we spend double per capita than any other nation.

But as flawed as the current system is, it has never bothered me if poor people have programs to help them. I believe health care is a human right in a modern society.

There is truth in the notion that you can judge a lot about a society by how the weakest and most vulnerable are treated. And on that score, America could (and should want to) do better.

I agree with ZCT. Helping each other and especially the less fortunate is the morally correct thing to do especially when it comes to health care. Many Americans believe you should look out for yourself and the heck with everybody else and state supplied health care provided by all taxpayers is “socialist” and ineffective. It seems to be actual fact that countries with this type of healthcare have citizens that report nothing but positive things to say about their current health care delivery systems. As a Canadian I find the U.S. style of health care delivery to favour greed, the rich and those in positions of power.

In reply to @ZCT

@ZCT said:

If you look back over my 1000+ posts, you will see that simply isn’t true of me. Of course I know you do this because you like to troll through things I posted years ago to try and prove me wrong.

I’d rather be happy with the products I fit my patients, than some bitter cynic looking to trash others, and cause negativity.

Oh come on, not even the hint of a wry smile…:wink:

I’m really looking forward to Starkey’s Larger Hadron Collider too.

@Um_bongo said:

Oh come on, not even the hint of a wry smile…:wink:

I’m really looking forward to Starkey’s Larger Hadron Collider too.

Well, you haven’t made it to my ignore list yet. :stuck_out_tongue:

In reply to @ed121

@ed121 said:

From what I have seen based on using aids for almost 45 or so years, I don’t think anyone or any company is making any obsene profits. Certainly if they were you can be sure competitors (probably Asian) would be all over the place.

And I have not seen any local dispensers/Audiologists driving Maserate or Rolls Royces.

No obsene profits just normal profits from what I can see.

This is actual fact.

The reason (in my opinion ) hearing aids are so damned expensive compared to other similiar electronics, is not in obsene profits, but in the business model. And t he business model is the direct result of government trying to protect the public.

The government should try to protect the public. An individual reporting a hearing loss needs to be properly assessed by a trained , licensed individual and referred to other medical parties if necessary.

No nasty greedy mean uncaring people screwing the poor defenseless old HOH people. NO Sir. The problem lies in the way aids are distributed to the HOH.

If aids were manufactured and retailed like all the other consumer electronics, you can be sure they would cost a small fraction of their present retail price.

Who would sell them ? Who would provide the initial fitting ? How is the hearing aid fitting verified with proven methods (speech mapping verification, etc.) How many individuals have the ability to actually use software and "self fit’ themselves properly ? Over 95 % of my patients could definitely not be able to do this regardless of the nature of their hearing loss. How much would the devices sell for ? Where do they go for service ?

But as long as aids are sold in limited quanties, require the services of trained professionals at the local retail level, they are going to cost a bundle.

As above, most individuals could not “self fit” their hearing aids.

For example what do you think a in the ear blue-tooth semi minature gadget would cost if dispensed in the way hearing aids are. Radio Shack sells them for about $100.
Technologically they are very similar to a BTE hearing aids.

Totally incorrect and misleading.

I say: " Let my people go." Free us from the goverment regs and watch the prices tumble. And the technology exists to allow the majority of HOH to self adjust their aids.

Sure, why not ? Unregulate even more industries…that’s what we should do…seems to work really well in other areas (LOL !!) especially the financial market.

Those with severe and/or complex loss will always need skilled professional services. IMO Ed

This is true but if only these people came into our clincs the drop in business from everyone else running to Wal Mart for their hearing aids would mean they would have to pay even more than they do now to allow clinics to stay open. Remember lower numbers of units sold per clinic means a higher margin has to be added to each unit to keep the doors open.

@HIP_Matt said:

This is true but if only these people came into our clincs the drop in business from everyone else running to Wal Mart for their hearing aids would mean they would have to pay even more than they do now to allow clinics to stay open. Remember lower numbers of units sold per clinic means a higher margin has to be added to each unit to keep the doors open.

No one has to keep the doors open, though…there’s no law saying hearing aid dispensers (or most every other profession) cannot go out of business. Why wouldn’t fewer numbers of units sold mean fewer dispensers? That would mean each dispenser that stayed in business would have more units sold, due to less competition. I’m not even saying this is what would happen if aids were sold at Wal-Mart, or that it SHOULD happen, I’m just not following your logic that prices would go up.

@Melissa said:

No one has to keep the doors open, though…there’s no law saying hearing aid dispensers (or most every other profession) cannot go out of business. Why wouldn’t fewer numbers of units sold mean fewer dispensers? That would mean each dispenser that stayed in business would have more units sold, due to less competition. I’m not even saying this is what would happen if aids were sold at Wal-Mart, or that it SHOULD happen, I’m just not following your logic that prices would go up.

If all of a sudden there was a significant number of people who used to buy their hearing aids at a dispensing practice now are going to walmart of other sale location, the number of those individuals seeking professional help would diminish. Those in business would have to increase prices to stay in business (less people = less sales = less income) which could potentially lead to staff layoffs and/or office closure. So people either unable or unwilling would at least initially (and really…when have you ever heard of the price of hearing aids decreasing???) be paying more to compensate for those practices having fewer patients walking through the doors.

Children, the elederly, individuals with those popular “hard” hearing losses to fit (even though many of us pro’s repeat that a mild hearing loss is often far harder to fit than the more significant ones)…all those people who just can’t/won’t go to walmart and buy their own hearing aids.

That’s the logic behind the likely increase in price mentioned.

Hearing aid dispensing practices close all the time as it stands. It’s a given for any audiologist going into private practice where they aren’t purchasing another practice or leaving an established one to go out on their own that it will take probably at least 4-6 years to start generating a profit. I worked for an office that closed in less than a year because the owner was hemorrhaging money every month and he was making a point to sell his hearing aids less than his competitors…

Sorry for the delayed reply folks, I have been kinda preoccupied with other events in my life, like close friends dieing and my dog of 8 years has chronic kidney failure and for the life of me, I can’t put him to sleep… I’m just a big softy when it comes to animals!

In the end guys and girls everything is relative, what I might term as obscene profits, you might term as reasonable profits, its my opinion that some people in this part of the health industry are making a killing… I also believe the major hearing aid manufacturers do run a cartel, this might be borne out in evidence of very, very similar prices for their high end aids? But as a great man once said, “opinions are like @rseholes, we have all got one” and I’m no different! :smiley: I do try to understand the complexity’s of the hearing industry, it is not like most other industries in that I mean, the actual products production is fairly cheap to produce, but the motto seems to be; “produce as cheap as you can and sell for as much as you think you can get away with”…for us with a severe/profound loss, we have little option but to buy the best as our livelihood may depend on whether we can hear or not and in a hearing world we face adversity, prejudice and downright blatant discrimination every single day and it is little wonder that we tend to loose our confidence over time; whether that is through being the butt end of everyone’s jokes, being left out of conversations, the lack of promotion, a colleagues complete failure to communicate effectively or even try too, it would seem its too much effort? Working in dead-end jobs has very little to do with our intelligence, we are not stupid or simple, we are deaf and only a chosen few will employ us! Lastly the one that gets me going when I cant hear someone they’ll say; “it doesn’t matter”… There are some real ignorant people in this world!

Now, do I feel that the hearing industry is ripping the HOH of this world off? Yes I do, absolutely! Are we going to all agree, no that’s never going to happen as everyone sees it from their own perspective, whether you are an end user/HOH, a , Audi or Manufacturer, then our opinions will differ wildly! At the end of the day when a single high end hearing aid costs under $200 to produce, yet costs £3500+ by the time it gets to the business end, then there is something fundamentally wrong with the hearing industry… Just a wee afterthought, do you think there would be a public outcry, if say other people with different disabilities were treated with the same disdain as the HOH? Now, for instance, if the wheelchair manufacturers and retailers decided that their custom built made to measure wheelchairs should cost 15 times the actual production cost…I think there might be one helluva stink created, so why should the HOH of this world be treated any different? And before you say it, you can’t compare wheelchairs to ’s! Nothing in this world it would seem, can be drawn in any kinda comparison to HA’s, ESPECIALLY THE PRICE!!!:smiley:

Cheers Kev.

@kevels55 said:

Now, do I feel that the hearing industry is ripping the HOH of this world off? Yes I do, absolutely!

Kev,

Sorry about the dog, that’s tough.

Unfortunately though with regards to this discussion, your argument didn’t really pan out, even if you choose to still believe your original assertion.

In the course of the discussion no one ever actually proved that high end hearing aids cost $200 to make. Even if they did, that doesn’t take into account how much it cost to arrive at a point where they could be made for that amount. So your initial number is bogus and taken in a vacuum, out of context, and again, with no proof of the assertion being accurate or true. And no a few people on the forum who know a bit (or a lot) about electronics still doesn’t make this figure true.

Then later we looked up the publicly available data regarding the actual profit margins of two major players in the hearing aid industry. Turns out they were making around 23% profit. Certainly not obscene by any stretch of the imagination.

And I think the general consensus too was that hearing professionals are also not making out like bandits either. I even gave some examples of what would happen at a hearing aid clinic if hearing aids cost $800.

Finally the whole cartel thing is little more than a conspiracy theory, and again no evidence has been presented of any kind of collusion or price fixing. I travel the country with my job, and I can tell you that the price our competition sell their hearing aids for varies wildly. In some markets our company is way ahead of the competition, and in others there are aggressive cut throat discounters, that can beat our prices. Unlike Rolex, Apple, Scion, and many other companies that actively fix prices, it’s pretty clear that this is not happening in the hearing aid industry.

The closest truth I’ve seen posted here is the broken record from Ed that if hearing aids were sold in Walmart like Bluetooth headsets with all medical restrictions removed, they would almost certainly be cheaper. But then, that’s also true of Botox, fertility drugs, antibiotics. So it’s a bit of a false argument. As I’ve said before, it’s odd that none of the major electronics companies have chosen to sell hearing aids under a different name, if it were so easy to do. Remember there is nothing to stop any company selling personal listening devices in an unregulated fashion, they just can’t call them hearing aids, and they must include a disclaimer that they are not intended to treat a health condition. Billions of dollars of pills are sold every year with a statement on that says the has not verified the claims made, so no reason why it couldn’t work with off the shelf hearing aids. Of course it hasn’t, and this adds credence to the notion that this whole discussion is more complicated than some might think.

At the end of the day the discussion is pretty much over. You started the thread with an inflammatory remark about obscene profits, and after some discussion and research we learned that this isn’t true. Even now in your most recent post you are still confusing the terms ‘markup’ and ‘profit’ which is a critical flaw in the argument. So really unless you have some new evidence you’d like to present, there’s little more to be said.

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